Posts by Sulla

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

I think that may be a description of how I view the soul. I don't know if the soul is inherently immortal, but the Bible speaks about life after death for both the wicked and the righteous. The Bible uses the word "soul" in several different senses, but it speaks about the consciousness of both the righteous and the wicked after death. The wicked MUST be conscious if they are to experience eternal sadness and the knashing of their teeth. There are several passages that speak about the wicked being alive after the body is killed.

Christalone, I was making reference to the creedal statements. What Christians believe in as a matter of dogma is the resurrection of the body. The immortality of the soul is not part of that specific belief. In fact, the nature of the soul with specific reference to the resurrection of the body is an active subject of theological debate. There is even a Catholic theologian who has tried to work out how an entirely materialist "soul" might be consistent with the dogma of the resurrection (without much success, I think).

I totally agree that the JW's view of what a resurrection must mean with respect to the nature of the human person is nonsense on stilts.

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Sulla

The JWs don't even believe in resurrection, much less the resurrection of the body. They teach that nothing of the original body is raised again in the resurrection. They go further to deny any sort of continuity between the person who died and the person who is raised. The latter is rather a facsimile of the person who died.

And there are many Christians who believe in a corporeal resurrection, such as Bishop N. T. Wright.

Well now I have to explain. I think that a great many regular Christians have a belief about the resurrection that is essentially as the JWs accuse Christendom of teaching: your immortal soul continues on as a spirit. They aren't supposed to, since I don't know of any major Christian religion that fails to hold the resurrection of the body as an article of faith, but I think plenty of Christians have managed to miss this part of the whole thing. I base that on casual conversation with Christians of various traditions as well as an interesting experience teaching religious education to the 9th graders in my parish. Doesn't N.T. Wright have a section in his book about this? Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

As for what the JWs believe: I don't disagree with you. Continutiy is a huge problem, etc. But I do think that the Jw resurrection of the Other Sheep is pretty close to the idea the Second Temple Jews had and is, in that way, closer to the historical Christian teaching than existence as a spirit (as I assert many Christians sort of believe). Like I said, I was grasping at straws: their teaching is still a mess.

91

Was the Watchtower Right?

by Christ Alone in

this question is for atheists and believers.

what teachings do you think the watchtower got right and why?

do you still think they are right about the trinity?

Sulla

Probably the only thing worth keeping from the JW approach is the emphasis on the physicality of the resurrection. Lots of otherwise orthodox Christians think they believe in something like the immortality of the soul, when what they believe in is the resurrection of the body. Of course, the resurrection of the body is based on the belief that Jesus was raised, which is something that JWs reject. But I'm grasping at straws.

14

The WTS has said the FDS predates 1919

by blondie in

jw
friends

w04 3/1 pp.

8-12a slave who is both faithful and discreetwho really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?matthew 24:45.. on tuesday afternoon, nisan 11, 33 c.e., jesus disciples raised a question that has profound meaning for us today.

they asked him: what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?

Sulla

Thanks, wannabefree. I wasnt around for a couple days and boom! All this happens. I agree, they have certainly found a solution to the problem.

75

The Society debunked the rumored new light on the F&DS in 1973

by Leolaia in

this is the summary of the rumored new light from the 2012 annual meeting, as posted by cedars.. the faithful and discreet slave was not appointed at pentecost 33ce, meaning that there has not been a continuous line of members of the slave class on the earth down through the ages.

the slave class was only appointed for the first time by christ in 1919.the faithful and discreet slave is a small group of anointed brothers during jesus presence serving at watchtower headquarters who are directly involved in the preparing and dispensing of spiritual food.

the individual members of the governing body are not the faithful and discreet slave.

Sulla

FWFranz, I do think this is move may be related. The weird hybrid apostolic succession teaching of the JWs has never been coherent. Of course, a lack of coherence is hardly a reason for them to change a teaching. But one thing I believe is really driving doctrine with the JWs is their theory of the church.

By that I mean the way in which they claim legitimacy. Thus, we see the preposterous doubling down on the 607 doctrine. Why? Because they know 607 means 1914 which means 1919. The reason they double down is because it related to the ability of the GB to make rules. Can't be changed.

Similar thing with this. I think we are looking at a period of change in many teachings of the JWs. Given their history, it would be good to assume they will reverse themselves and make changes that really anger lots of people. In this context, and given much eralier JW history, it would be important to re-emphasize exactly who is in charge. If the FDS is lots of people, you could have a crisis of legitimacy. They need more degrees of freedom.

designs, I doubt very much that the JWs are concerned with the claims of the old Bible Students. On the other hand, I think there was a very good lesson learned from that schism; one they will not risk again.

14

The WTS has said the FDS predates 1919

by blondie in

jw
friends

w04 3/1 pp.

8-12a slave who is both faithful and discreetwho really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?matthew 24:45.. on tuesday afternoon, nisan 11, 33 c.e., jesus disciples raised a question that has profound meaning for us today.

they asked him: what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?

Sulla

The JWs' invisible apostolic succession. But doesn't this suggest that the fellow who taught Russell was als FDS, and so on? Is there a JW response to this line of reasoning, since I am sure they reject it?

14

Bible trading cards

by aposta-Z in

http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/children/bible-characters/.

.

really?

Sulla

Not a bad idea, really. But tried to do on the cheap -- they should just distribute the cards with gum or cigarettes or something.

27

You Won't be Resurrected.

by smmcroberts in

i'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you die prior to armageddon you won't be resurrected.

please read my latest blog article to find out why this is so according to the watchtower beliefs.. http://smmcroberts.net/blog/you-wont-be-resurrected/.

Sulla

The JWs generally teach the idea that you are your data. They dont like it, of course, when pressed because of exactly the problems outliend in the OP. Identity is generally thought to rely in some way on uniqueness or numerical distinction and, obviously, we can put my data into any number of places.

The great advantage is that it allows the JW idea that people can be raised as either human or else non-human. The cost is merely in the absurdity of identifying the person with his data. JWs would be far better off simply being substance dualists, identifying the person with an immaterial soul -- then it wouldn't matter if you were a human or a spirit. But JWs hate anything that smacks of philosophy, especially if it's Greek.

36

Jason BeDuhn regarding Revelation 7 and the Great Crowd

by Sauerkraut in

a while ago i sent an e-mail to jason beduhn, that the society is quite fond of.

they like to quote him in publications.

so when i started researching the great crowd and the accuracy of the earthly hope doctrine i thought i might write him and ask him what the exact meaning of "before the throne" (revelation 7:9) and "temple" (7:15) is.

Sulla

Well, the idea that the NWT incorrectly (according to BeDuhn) puts "Jehovah" into the NT because they wish to advance their Arian theology (according to everybody) would seem to pretty well disqualify the whole project. I can't see how anyone can take the NWT seriously, given this naked absurdity.

36

Jason BeDuhn regarding Revelation 7 and the Great Crowd

by Sauerkraut in

a while ago i sent an e-mail to jason beduhn, that the society is quite fond of.

they like to quote him in publications.

so when i started researching the great crowd and the accuracy of the earthly hope doctrine i thought i might write him and ask him what the exact meaning of "before the throne" (revelation 7:9) and "temple" (7:15) is.

Sulla

BeDuhn is, like, the JW theology go-to guy. I know of several JWs who have sent e-mails to him regarding questions like this and he quite often responds. Interesting that he would do that for various strangers -- most of whom have some sort of religious axe to grind.

His book, claiming the the NWT is somehow the least biased of a whole set of major translations, might as well have been written by an evil clown on meth then on stilts, of course. But he seems like a decent fellow.