Sulla

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Posts by Sulla

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  106

  If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

  decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

  physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

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  Sulla

  Just got to point out sullas argument from the last page. In particular the explanation that if god prevented suffering --as in stopping a rape-- that would somehow open god up to the awfull possibility someone will ask him to iron his shirt; and god, apparently not the kind of guy who capable of taking things on a case-by-case basis, view it as two options:

  1) prevent rapes, potentially iron shirts.

  2) allow rape, do not iron shirt.

  And option two is apparently the better.

  I've thought you to be so much better than this, bohm. Perhaps you really are better than this and are just making a bad-faith argument. In any case, it should be obvious that a Cofty-style argument -- there exists suffering that a kind and omnipotent God could prevent and does not, therefore a kind and omnipotent God does not exist -- really does unravel itself to the argument that there exists inconvenience that a kind and omnipotent God could prevent ...

  In other words, and since Cofty wants to suppose we have a pain-o-meter, we might be able to rank many types of suffering on a scale from worst to least. Mutilation is worse than rape, but rape plus mutilation is worse than mutilation alone but sexual mutilation is worse than eyeball mutilation unless you need your eyeballs to work in which case it's roughly equal. Or something. And on our scale, my wrinkled shirt is clearly very close to the bottom of the suffering scale.

  But that's not Cofty's point. His point is that the scale does not read zero. So long as there is one goddam wrinkled shirt in the goddam universe, Cofty's scale will be stubbornly stuck at some positive number, making his point that a kind and omnipotent God must not exist.

  My response doesn't minimize the real questions of suffering, but it does minimize the hollow syllogism Cofty is attempting. Indeed, the only answer that is useful is the one that goes back to the story of the Temptation. The Devil taunts Jesus with Cofty's argument: If you're God, feed the hungry people. All of 'em. And the answer then is the same one now: that's not what's wrong with us. Suffering is the symptom of a much more profound disease. The more profound disease does not have the sort of quick fix that, say, turning stones into bread can achieve.

  But, were you to engage that line of thought, you would be agruing in good faith. And it's more fun to shout, "Fail!" So, given those options...
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  106

  If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

  decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

  physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

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  Sulla

  yes it did strike me as crass. I am not an unrealistic skeptic who thinks god should make the world into a copy of Disneyworld.

  Maybe you didn't get all the way to the end of my post. In any case, you actually are arguing that God needs to make the world into Disneyworld right now. Too see this, simply observe that your example of the pain-o-meter is exactly as valid (or not) when anyone anywhere for any reason experiences pain or unhappiness. So, my rejoinder that God, if he exists, should iron my shirt seems apt: my wrinkeld shirt causes me public humiliation whereas ironing it makes me unhappy since it is a chore. Therefore...

  But, as the story of the Temptation shows, the idea that God should solve suffering is a very old concern within the Christian tradition. But the claim that story maintains is that such an emphasis misses the point of the human experience: suffering is a symptom, it is not the disease. The disease is not cured by turning stones to bread.
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  205

  Mother Teresa attacked by Atheist/Anostic group -

  by james_woods in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  while i am no fan of mother teresa after reading some of the revealed facts about her life and work - i thought this was just a little out of the realm of polite conversation (but was interesting):.

  atheist group at dartmouth plans anti mother teresa event.. .

  http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?id=4503.

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  Sulla

  I suppose there exist people who think Theresa's Nobel Prize was awarded in error, while the President's was not.
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  29

  any ex witness from maryland ?

  by unstopableravens in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hi i have not been here for a while i did not have a working pc how has everyone been ?

  just wondering if there a re any ex jws from maryland.

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  Sulla

  Ah, but Frederick was good country people.
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  106

  If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  imagine that it was possible to precisely measure the amount of suffering in the world at any given moment - a cosmic "pain meter".

  decide for yourself what the unit of measurement would be.. we can only imagine a fraction of the combined suffering that is being felt right now.

  physical pain, emotional despair, grief, desperation, loss, terror and hopelessness.. of course if there is an omniscient god then he knows to the last iota what that theoretical meter would read right now.. the bible contains a number of answers to the question of suffering - ever since the babylonian exile one popular answer has been to blame his nemesis the devil, "we know that we are children of god, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

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  Sulla

  Cofty always posts with a great optimism -- and I don't mean that sarcastically.

  But I feel like we've played this hand before. Help me out, Cofty: couldn't God, if he existed, iron my shirt? It's wrinkled as all hell and I'm short of time.

  Maybe that strikes you as crass. But you surely know the story: "Turn these stones into bread," he said, "if you really are who you say you are." Hell, while you're at it, dude, turn 'em all into bread; there's lots of hungry people around here.
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  29

  any ex witness from maryland ?

  by unstopableravens in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hi i have not been here for a while i did not have a working pc how has everyone been ?

  just wondering if there a re any ex jws from maryland.

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  Sulla

  Montgomery County?
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  85

  Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses

  by smiddy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).

  both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).

  the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.

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  Sulla

  So, according to Sulla and the official church doctrine, the RCC is Christ's Church alone, correct? Can we please get a clarification on this? A simple yes or no?

  I'd rather this be a learning experience for me. What does the Catholic Church have to offer? Why claim it as the sole truth?

  Knowsnothing, both the Orthodox and the Catholics have valid apostolic succession. Nobody else does. Thus, other Christian groups are splinters from the Church and are in greater or lesser union with it. The fullness of the gospel is taught by those churches in full communion with the bishop of Rome. The degree to which those churches not in full communion with Rome fail to possess the full gospel ranges from de minimus (Orthodox) to complete (JWs).

  If you think that the life of a Christian centers around communion with Christ, then the Eucharist is the theological and historical center of that thing known as Christian religion. That can happen in Orthodox or Catholic churches. In addition to the sacraments, a Christian can also benefit from the faithful teachings of the ancient Church and the witness of the saints as guides to holiness.
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  53

  WT Elders school: Avoid black and white thinking - now look at this zebra

  by sir82 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  continuing on with my haphazard review of the recent one-day elders school..... in one of the introductory talks, the co was making the point that we can't view things merely from a black and white perspective.

  many issues have "shades of gray" and we need to use discernment in such situations.. and i'm thinking "finally!

  maybe he will continue on to make an actual, reasonable point!".

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  Sulla

  Of course. The Children of the Corn ripped the NT pages out of the bible, as I recall. Makes perfect sense.
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  85

  Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses

  by smiddy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).

  both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).

  the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.

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  Sulla

  I would suggest, Cofty, that the idea that God would want someone to be Catholic or Protestant is missing the point. We -- well, some of us -- want God. We can't have him, because he is transcendent and a impossible to understand, what with having being as his essence and all. But God, as the Jews and Christians insist, meets us where and as we are. Bronze Age goatherds, Medieval barely-civilized warriors, post-Christian sophisticated hipster brights -- doesn't matter. Turns out, so the Christians insist, God loves everybody.

  Finally, of course, he became a man. Doesn't make sense, but there it is. And to facilitate this act moving forward in history, he left a Church. It's a really irritating institution sometimes that happens to have a few crucial benefits. One of which is that it delivers the sacraments, the ordinary means of receiving grace.

  But the JW-inspired mindset will miss this, nearly always. For them, God wants this and that; God wants us to preach and God wants us to not fornicate and God wants us to pray and be JWs. And they think that the Catholic approach is similar, except that the Catholics think God really wants everybody to be Catholic. It ain't like that.
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  85

  Similarities between Roman Catholics and Jehovah`s Witnesses

  by smiddy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  both claim to be the sole path to god (or did at some point ).

  both claim to reach back to first century christians ,( though jw`s are a bit ambiguous about this).

  the r.c church has a pope , the j.w.`s have a governing body ,both providing spiritual food to the faithful.

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  Sulla

  Because they sincerely believe the RCC is an abomination that Jesus would want nothing to do with for example.

  Ha! Well, that circles back to the fully-informed part, I guess.