Posts by Sulla

40

South African cardinal suggests child abuse is illness not crime

by besty in

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/16/us-safrica-cardinal-idusbre92f09a20130316.

johannesburg | sat mar 16, 2013 11:54am edt.

(reuters) - a south african cardinal who helped elect pope francis this week has told the bbc pedophilia is an illness and not a crime.. cardinal wilfrid fox napier, the catholic archbishop of durban, told bbc radio 5 on saturday that pedophilia was a "disorder" that needed to be treated.. "from my experience, pedophilia is actually an illness.

Sulla

So, designs, you agree that pedophillia is a mental disease? That's really the question, though you know I hate to ask you to get off your soap box for any reason.

At the risk of being impossibly pedantic, let us consult the Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders, at tedious length:

Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children. A paraphilia is a disorder that is characterized by recurrent intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies generally involving: nonhuman objects; the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner (not merely simulated); or animals, children, or other nonconsenting persons. Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html#b#ixzz2NqOBuNiM

...

Pedophilia is defined by mental health professionals as a mental disorder, but the American legal system defines acting on a pedophilic urge as a criminal act. Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html#b#ixzz2NqOHKryr

...

The focus of pedophilia is sexual activity with a child. Many courts interpret this reference to age to mean children under the age of 18. Most mental health professionals, however, confine the definition of pedophilia to sexual activity with prepubescent children, who are generally age 13 or younger. The term ephebophilia , derived from the Greek word for "youth," is sometimes used to describe sexual interest in young people in the first stages of puberty. Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html#b#ixzz2NqPP61xK

Of course, the vast majority of the abuse cases were this latter kind -- ephebophillia -- and overwhelmingly homosexual in nature. The attraction to post-pubescent youth is what hip-hop artist R. Kelly found himself in hot water over. This is not considered a phychiatric disease.

So, boys and girls, it would seem that on the facts, the Cardinal is correct when he says pedophillia is a disease.

You may now return to your regularly-scheduled rage.

63

Are the Witnesses Really Losing Their Young People?

by What Now? in

that article about jehovah's witnesses having the lowest retention rate for born ins keeps popping up every now again ... i'm just curious if any of you have noticed that this is actually the case.

in the congregation that i grew up in, i'm going to say that 95% of the young people in their teens to mid twenties are either regular pioneering, regular auxiliary pioneering, serving in foreign language congregations or where the need is greater.

both of my younger sisters are regular pioneers - and the young people in their hall even organize 8 pm to midnight service on friday nights of their own accord.

Sulla

I don't think it is necessarily a surprise to find that, conditional on remaining a JW, the distribution of religious fervor would be skewed toward higher levels.

That aside, plenty of Evangelical churches have really strong youth groups and high levels of youth involvement. If the JWs are able to pivot away from being an apocalyptic sect and toward a more ordinary (though doctrinally heterodox) religion, they will see a shift to higher retention rates.

303

New Pope about to come out

by new22day in

maybe she'll be really progessive..

Sulla

Also, Sulla, I feel bad for your wife.

It might be a mistake, FlyingHighNow, to suppose that my examples are always strictly and literally personal.

Sulla, previous: Since my orientation is toward a sequence of young women, and I can't marry all of them, well, you can see the problem.

Dismissing servant: The problem is that you think monogamous, hetero sex is some sort of fix for the problem. But such a thing is completely unnatural, men have evolved quite differently and have a natural inclination toward a series of young women.

I dont know where you could draw the conclusion that I think "monogamous, hetero sex is some sort of fix" for the way men have evolved. My point is that the teachings of the Church -- when they assert homosexual sex is wrong -- cannot be categorized as "anti-gay" any more than the Church is "anti-hetero" when they say that having hetero sex with people to whom you are not married is wrong. I doubt this point is so subtle that it can't be directly engaged with.

Dismissing servant: If you have this insight on human sexuality and it's evolutionary background, why on earh are you defending the churchs wiew of homosexuality?

It may surprise you to reflect on the number of things we are evolved to do on which the Church takes a dim view. Murder, for example, would be considered to be near the top of the list. So, the fact that we have evolved to do something i-- like say, have an inclination to murder people who don't look like us -- sn't really a moral argument, is it?

New22day: Ironically, because the RCC says homosexuality is a sin gays can't marry so therefore don't have the luxury of committing adultery. (LOL)

Gays can't marry for the same reason yu can't make a square triangle

New22dat: Following your train of thought, one could say, murder is a sin but thinking about murder is not a sin. Stealing is a sin but thinking about stealing isn't a sin. Church doesn't approve of murderers or thieves either. I think you're stretching.

The desire to murder someone may be entirely reasonable and is not, itself, a sin. You can't help your feelings, you can help your actions. That's a pretty basic observation, I would think; more: it is the ancient teaching of the Church. So, not really a stretch. More like an accurate example of exactly what the Church teaches.

New22day: Unless of course you're an advocate for repressing natural desires. If that's the case, then I kind of get your point. Just repress yourself and then you're good with the church.

I wonder if you think you are being silly. Or perhaps you are really advocating that any natural desire cannot be morally wrong.

40

South African cardinal suggests child abuse is illness not crime

by besty in

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/16/us-safrica-cardinal-idusbre92f09a20130316.

johannesburg | sat mar 16, 2013 11:54am edt.

(reuters) - a south african cardinal who helped elect pope francis this week has told the bbc pedophilia is an illness and not a crime.. cardinal wilfrid fox napier, the catholic archbishop of durban, told bbc radio 5 on saturday that pedophilia was a "disorder" that needed to be treated.. "from my experience, pedophilia is actually an illness.

Sulla

Not to let pesky facts cloud our Catholic discussions here, but:

Does the medical community consider pedophilia to be a mental disorder?

Yes. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has included pedophilia in itsDiagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders since 1968.

In the DSM, which is updated periodically, pedophilia has been grouped with other paraphilias -- which the APA defines as "recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors that involve children, nonhuman subjects, or other non-consenting adults, or the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner."

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/explaining-pedophilia

36

It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"

by never a jw in

jw
friends

just a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.

sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.

he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.

Sulla

My main purpose is to weaken his faith in his God, the FDS, and also to present in JWN how high the cognitive dissonance runs in the JW's circles

Well, I'm afraid you are doomed on all three counts. First, he has no faith in God to weaken: his faith is in the JWs and the gnostic conspiracy theory they present as gospel.

Second, his status in this world is dependent on the FDS, as you have pointed out. How many times do you need to read stories here where some person leaving the JWs costs them everything? Why would anyone who has such a high status give it up for any reason? Ray Franz was kicked out of his position, recall. This site is loaded with people who are "fading" because they are afraid of losing what they have -- how many Elders here are grasping that status while knowing JW-ism is false? Talk about cognitive dissonance -- we got it in the ex-JW community in spades.

Which brings me to the third point: cognitive dissonance ain't just a river in Egypt!

303

New Pope about to come out

by new22day in

maybe she'll be really progessive..

Sulla

Let me make this clear for YOU. Homosexual acts are NOT a sin...or sinful. The fact that you readily admit that your church tells you that it is sinful, and you are OK with it makes me very sad for you.

You're just being argumentative. Anything where you suggest you are an independent thinker is quite a joke, really. But have at it.

If two hetero people have premarital sex then the sex is sinful. If gay people have sex then it is sinful. But the comparison stops there. Heteros can get married.

In Argentina, gay people can get married. But the RCC teaches that after marriage, hetero sexual people are not sinning when they engage in sex. But gay people are sinning when they marry and engage in sex. So, homosexual sex is always a sin according to RCC official doctrine.

Actually, the comparison doesn't end there. I happen to be married already, so my orientation toward tasty strange cannot ever be fulfilled without engaging in a sinful act. Even if I weren't married, if I married one of the interns, that would foreclose shagging all the others who parade through my workplace. Since my orientation is toward a sequence of young women, and I can't marry all of them, well, you can see the problem.

The problem is that you think monogamous, hetero sex is some sort of fix for the problem. But such a thing is completely unnatural, men have evolved quite differently and have a natural inclination toward a series of young women.

So, would you be prepared to say that the Church, insisting that my natural preference is sinful, is anti-hetero? Why?

36

It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"

by never a jw in

jw
friends

just a recap.. i posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and c.o.

sibstitute in a spanish circuit somewhere in the u.s. the man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders.

he is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve jehovah.

Sulla

What else is there to say? He just told you that it doesn't matter whether those issues raised make valid points or not. Valid / not valid, true / not true, doesn't matter.

Why? Well, you answered the question already, didn't you? Large, high-profile family, deep in the JWs, loved and respected by thousands, already made significant sacrifices for the religion. Against that, you offer up the idea that 607 B.C. is wrong? To such a fellow, what could possibly be more irrelevant? Hell, if you were in the same position, I bet you'd be tempted to thing the same way; I know I would.

66

If 1914 is wrong then how is it that it was such a landmark year?

by awakening in

jw
friends

this is the question that came up in my mind.

now dont get me wrong i know the dates from 607 - 1914 are rubbish, but how would you explain to a witness when they will automatically say, look at the momentus year 1914 was.

that is evidence enough that 607 is correct!.

Sulla

Funny aditional point. The French philosopher René Giriard, who has spent a lot of time writing on sacred violence, wrote a book recently, Battling to the End. Much too much to summarize, but I thought this passage was worth a laugh:

If we had been told 30 years ago that Islamism would replace Cold War, we would have laughed. If we had said 30 years ago that military and environmental events were foretold in the Gospel or that the apocalypse had begun at Verdun, people would have taken us for Jehovah's Witnesses.

Actually, from accounts of the action at Verdun, I think maybe they're right. Anyhow...

303

New Pope about to come out

by new22day in

maybe she'll be really progessive..

Sulla

I think what you are missing, new22day, is the conclusion that has been drawn from the idea that the Church says homosexuality is a sin. Namely: that the Church is anti-gay. However, the attraction to the same sex is not a sin for, any more than an attraction to people to whom you are not married is a sin. So, the Church says homosexual acts are sinful in exactly the same way that acts between anyone else who is not married are sinful. But we don't suppose that the church is anti-hetero because of this. Neither is it accurate to say that the Church is anti-gay.

Put differently, I may really want to have sex with the tasty interns we hire around my workplace, yet the Church tells me such an act would be sinful. That doesn't mean the Church hates me.

26

I Just Had A JW Come To My Work And Offer Me A Memorial Invitation And A Magazine!!!

by minimus in

jw
friends

i responded in this`way: i already got an invitation so i'm all set.. she said, "would you like a magazine and i said, "no thank you"'..... and she just left.. it took no more than 15 seconds!.

Sulla

When was the last time a JW actually preached to someone in an assigned setting and brought someone to be baptized?

1972. A JW knocked on the door to my parents' house, followed by a study, followed by baptism. They recall at a critical point, the brother who was conducting their study told them that there was a "ring of truth" with the JWs. It sounds true, he said.

Six years later, he ran off with his admin. Left wife and three children. When he died (young), of his few millions of dollars in his estate, he left precisely nothing to his children by his first marriage.