I hope not, Jeff. You're exhausting.
Posts by Sulla
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161Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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Sulla
Jeff: You merely claim that there are superior ways to define and explain the Trinity, yet fail to offer even one. You condescendingly say that I and others reject the Trinity based on inferior information, or that I am limited by my JW background. What you say is offensive and elevates yourself, and just in case you're curious, that is why I believe you to be self righteous and superior acting.
I keep typing the words and you keep ignoring the words. Debates about the Trinity are a waste of time. Meditate on those words.
I do say your arguments against the Trinity are childish, I do not say that is why you reject the teaching. And, since you are not a self-reflective man, I (again) point out that you are the one who was offensive and self-elevating before I was offensive and self-elevating. You do recall saying that the reason debates about the Trinity are a waste of time is because those who believe it are not logical? You, of course, don't see those comments as offensive and self-elevating because, well, you made them.
Jeff: It's as if you are hoping to make a point by implying their are better ways to understand the Trinity, that the rest of us haven't figured out whatever you claim to have figured out, all the while dodging and avoiding having to explain whatever it is that makes your take on the Trinity better/superior/(whatever) to others.
Look, dumbass, I've said 100 times there is no point in discussing the issue on a site like this. Any knucklehead with access to one of the interwebs can find some big, sophisticated book by a Jesuit explaining the whole thing. If you don't like reading big, sophisticated theology books, fine. But at least admit you don't care to engage the question in a serious way.
The difference between the Trinity and your stupid Scientology example, of course, is that the Trinity has 2,000 years of theological reflection by the best minds in the West. Augustine, Aquinas, and Scotus don't mean anything to an intellectual stud like AllTimeJeff, who discovered the whole thing doesn't make any sense. Do you think it is possible that you could get over yourself?
Jeff: I think your next goal for your faith would be to develop a little bit of humility.
Hmm. I think ex-Gilead student AllTimeJeff, trained by the finest theological minds the Watchtower Society has, is an idiot. AllTimeJeff thinks Thomas Aquinas is an idiot. One of us certainly should develop some humility.
Jeff: I have no desire to in general to spend a lot of time debating the Trinity with you per se Sulla. What motivated me to confront you is the appearance you gave (in my view) that you have the absolute truth.Pointing out that you don't know anything about the teaching you reject is hardly a claim to have absolute truth, Jeff.
Jeff: You really look down on former JW's. I base that on your comment that I quote above.
That would be my comment I made where I was critical of "some ex-JWs"? I leave it as an exercise to find the flaw in your reasoning.Jeff: Does it really take superior education to worship god? Does God only like 'smart, more reflective, more sensitive' worshipers... like you? If so, I think that rules out your god and your version of god specifically right there. If it is an exclusive club, then your god, like you, is a superior, aloof, self righteous jack ass.
You're ranting. Of course, what it really takes is humility, the kind of humility that allows itself to imagine that 2,000 years of theological reflection may, perhaps, have produced a core Christian teaching that is not entirely illogical. The kind of humility that can swallow the concept that men whose writings are still consulted and argued about 1,600 years later (Augustine, for example) or 800 years later (Aquinas) just possibly might not be dumber than I am. The kind of humility that rejects the idea that, because the anti-Christian cult you just left is wrong, therefore Christianity is also wrong.
I've said elsewhere that I believe the original sin of the JWs is pride: they are idiots but think they are smarter and better than everybody else in the world. I have suggested that many people who are drawn to the JWs are also arrogant idiots. The problem I have with some ex-JWs is that they retain both their arrogance and their stupidity after they leave; you are exhibit A, Jeff. But that's you: often in error, never in doubt.
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Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time
by AllTimeJeff inthis isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.
because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.
awesome!
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Sulla
Well, you are the one who started it, you ponce.
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13
went to a funeral today, somewhat awestruck.
by man in black inthis morning i went to a catholic funeral mass for a priest who inherited, and help grow an orphanage in chicago.
he died from cancer which he had for the past several years.. when he got the orphanage back in the early 70's the church was ready to shut it down for lack of direction, and growth.
but since he took over the reins,.
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Sulla
My grandfather died last year and, for reason unknowable, decided to have his son, my father, arrange the memorial service. Grandfather was an atheist, my father is a fairly important JW in the circuit.
Anyhow, memorial service at the funeral home. Forty minutes on eulogy, thirty minutes on JW apologetics. What's the saying, bride at every wedding, corpse at every funeral? That's the JW way.
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John 2:19-22 and the bodily resurrection of Christ
by booker-t ini must admit after talking about this subject with evangelical christians i am still not sure why do they hold onto this false doctrine that blaspemes jehovah god and jesus christ and just cannot be proven from the bible.
i have talked to christians for years regarding this doctrine and while i try not to debate anymore like i used to do i still have christians trying to read john 2:19-22 to fit their doctrine.
i always like to take the verse piece by piece to show christians their errors.
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Sulla
Is this some sort of very subtle joke?
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What's The Worst Thing About Ever Having Been A Jehovah's Witness?
by minimus infor me, it's the waste of precious time and being lied to.. stupid time consuming things to do that are utterly worthless!
and on top of that being told that you were going to live forever on paradise if you followed their decrees..
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Sulla
The profound waste. Lives wasted waiting for the End instead of becoming the person you were meant to be.
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95
Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time
by AllTimeJeff inthis isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.
because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.
awesome!
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Sulla
Just noticed this response by ATJ. It would be impolite not to acknowledge Jeff's belated and, no doubt, difficult admission that I was entirely correct. Since he invites people to think what they will, I'll share what I think. I think it was stupid and that the stupidity was prolonged by further levels of stupidity. But Jeff does seem to have seen his mistake and come to admit it, so he is more of a stand-up guy than he needed to be. Not sure why he felt the need to start another thread where he calls me out by name, but there it is.
Jeff: My other point is, I don't apologize for not liking Sulla's style. I am tired of pretending that I agree with and like everybody, and that I have to find common ground . I don't.
Great point! That's why I never spend a minute pretending that I like everybody. See, Jeff, you agree with me about plenty of things...
Jeff: The fact that you, Sulla and others feel superior in believing the Trinity is quite alright with me though. Have fun!
Hmm. You know what? I think it really does bother you. I think it bothers you so much that you won't shut the hell up about it. I think you just started another thread where you talk about how much it doesn't bother you. I think you commented on another thread where you called me out by name on this exact issue.
I think you're obsessed with it and can't stop thinking about it. And the E V I D E N C E supports that view.
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161
Theological Arguments, Human Realities
by AllTimeJeff inas i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.
frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.
that he is jesus.
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Sulla
I guess I have to agree with Chesterton: every argument is a theological argument. If we are going to suppose that Jesus really was raised from the dead and that his death really did fix us, then there are certain implications of that statement of faith. The Church takes those faith statements as axiomatic and argues from there.
One is perfectly able to reject the essential Christian insight and say Jesus was not raised and his death did not give us salvation. And, as I read AllTimeJeff, it seems this is his position. But, and this is the point, we shouldn't imagine that our different statements about reality (Sulla: Jesus is Lord of all. ATJ: Jesus is not Lord of all) are meaningless. AllTimeJeff and I happen to disagree about the meaning of the universe and our place in it; how do you get a more meaningful disagreement than that?
And perhaps that is why I think that this sort of forum isn't particularly good for discussions of things like the Trinity: it's too serious for the room. Look: Jeff says, " To argue the nature of god is to argue the unseen." St. John disagrees. He says we saw that which existed since the beginning, we touched it, we listened to it: that Word is life, made visible to us. And the Word insists he is the truth and the life.
I'm not surprised that some ex-JWs, upon leaving an anti-Christian cult, remain dedicated anti-Christians. I would similarly suspect that, say, Branch Davidians who left that cult have remained outside of the Christian belief system they rejected before they joined that cult. Neither am I surprised that the unearned pride that so many JWs feel, as well as the inchoate hatred of Christianity, remains a driving force for some after they leave the JWs. There was, after all, a reason they joined the JWs in the first place and it ain't because they were the smartest, most reflective, most sensitive kids on the block.
But I have discovered that Jeff almost always writes exactly the opposite of what he means. He writes that it is pointless to debate the Trinity, and then insists that I offer up reasons for believing the Trinity. He writes that he doesn't care if anybody else believes the Trinity, and then calls me out by name to criticize me for being a self-righteous Trinitarian. Or, was it I who has begun several threads on the topic?
But let me be clear: Jeff, I promise I don't care about your beliefs. And I promise not to try to make you believe the Trinity, no matter how many times you start threads on the subject.
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Sulla
Quendi, Quendi. I like you, but you are living in a world that doesn't exist. If JWs come to your door, knowing you are disfellowshipped, and want to discuss spiritual matters with mutual respect... Are you kidding me?
Resurrection is a Witness teaching? Uh, more like a Christian teaching, Quendi. Actually, the resurrection that the JWs think is the second-class resurrection is more like the ancient Christian teaching and the real resurrection for the real Christians in JW-speak is obviously Greek dualism, but that's neither here nor there.
Point is, here ain't no reason to feel sorry for any JW. If they are mislead, it's because they want to be mislead or because they are too lazy to keep from being mislead, or because they like feeling so goddamn superior to everybody that they mislead themselves. They're always talking nonsense: fuck 'em.
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Is there anyway to get a consistent high level leak....????
by Momma-Tossed-Me ini often wonder if anyone has a good consistent leak from the top level of the wtbts.
if not how can we get one, one with high level clearance.
they can't want much, probably just another $110 per month or whatever they are getting now, times are tough.. nothing would shake the borg more than consistent correct information coming out early via the internet.. nothing is sacred, all is revealed through a well hidden leak.. mtm.
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Sulla
You need to copy the Soviet and US intel processes. Generally speaking, the US was able to recruit Russian agents for ideological reasons. Obviously, people who are ideologically opposed to the JW simply leave. That leaves us with the Soviet methods: cash and chicks.
And, of course, you don't just come out and offer some boom-boom in exchange for the secrets. You select a target from a list, select a recruiter based on his weaknesses, begin a seduction. But, once you have the information, the whole point would be to publish it, thus burning the source you took so much effort building.
So, no, it isn't possible.