Posts by Sulla

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

designs, you have no idea...

Thank you, Jeff. But, to clarify, I don't think I've said ex-JWs suffer from low intelligence. What I have said, and continue to hold, is that

a) The choice to become a JW is an imperfect signal of

1) intellectual laziness and

2) arrogance.

b) Moreover, the decision to leave the JWs is not a strong signal that one is neither intellectually lazy nor arrogant. I think we see this displayed in various ways, most clearly on questions like atheism and some orthodox Christian teachings where I perceive JW-like traits among ex-JWs. Though, to be fair, the JW religion is damn near atheist and hostile to the Christian message to begin with, so those elements should also be considered.

24

The impact of Governing Body policy on higher education: read this!

by Terry in

excerpt:.

does your religion affect your income?by mari cockerell, ktxs newsabilene, texas -- the pew forum on religion and public life recently put out the results of a survey on wealth and religion in the united states.. you may be surprised to learn which religious groups in this country have the most and the least wealthy members.an infographic produced by the folks at www.good.is breaks down information gathered by the pew forum on religion and wealth.

it maps out distribution of income for the 14 major religious groups in this country, charting those whose income is less than $30,000 a year all the way up to $100,000+.. what they found is interesting.the religions whose members earn the most money are jews and hindus.

Sulla

Well, the Hindu thing is easy enough to explain, I think. India has been exporting some of their best talent for a while now. The afflictions of black Americans are well-known. It would be interesting to see a model of predicted income holding race and other facors constant. But it's a tough question, since religion is largely an endogenous choice.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

I did not come back to answer your question, designs. But I was raised as a JW.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Jeff: You have no idea what I know about the Trinity. I call bullshit Sulla. BULLSHIT!

I said you are ranting, didn't I? I feel like I said that already...

Jeff: Share what you know. Or don't. But don't try your "I can't win when my team has the ball" tactic of trying to switch the conversation. Really, if you can't argue the Trinity with someone (gasp, like me) who is clearly not on your educational or intellectual level, what chance does your belief in the Trinity have?

The teaching is either true or else not true. Whether you and I can talk about it obviously has no bearing on that. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are able to talk a whole pile of nonsense with people on your educational level; where's that got them?

Jeff: You haven't given an argument. Still. But are content to say that no former JW is qualifed to talk about it at all.

Pretty sure I never said that.

Jeff: What I haven't conceded is that YOU (not all Trinitarians, YOU Sulla, ) and what you maintain are wrong in saying that I, among others, aren't qualified to talk about the Trinity.

What if some other orthodox Christian made the same claim as I? Would you accept it if it came from somebody else? Doesn't matter, I guess. So prove me wrong, Jeff. Let's consider a subset of the question, ok? Multiple choice: St. Athanasius based his defense of the divinity of Christ in which aspect of religious study? a) ecclesiology b) soteriology c) eschatology In just a few sentences, explain his argument. Should be easy for a guy like you.

Jeff: Is that your tactic? Are you looking for someone to talk about the Trinity that you respect?

Not really. I've been trying to avoid the topic, but you keep bringing it up.

Jeff: However, if you come on an internet forum of former JW's, who are read, educated, and experienced in life, and expect us to fall over because you mention Thomas Aquinas's name? Wow. Good luck there.

Of course I don't expect that, Jeff. I do expect people who are read, educated, and experienced in life to NOT blithely suppose the giants of Christian thought can simply be dismissed as believing something that is merely illogical. Worse, that the minds here can see the obvious errors in thinking associated with the Trinity but those guys couldn't. Which is simply to say, I expect people who are really widely-read and experienced to have graduated to understanding that they are not the only smart people ever to have walked the earth. Such a viewpoint is adolescent, at best. As I have said before, it is an unlovely trait of JWs; one that is all too often kept long after one breaks his association with them.

9

Letters Elder Resignation and Withdrawal!

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

elder resignation and withdrawal!

today i added a new article to my blog showing the result of watchtowers means and methods on the ranks of good folks within the community of jehovahs witnesses.

this article contains a set of letters that are self-explanatory.

Sulla

Not sure how to take this sort of letter. On one hand, there is no denying the pain in it. On the other hand, the treatment he got was typical of the organization that he served with his all for 30 years; how many people would write letters like this about him?

Is it impoloite to say that this reminds me of a story of some Communist enforcer who finally has Stalin turn on him, too?

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

I'm sorry, designs, but would you mind telling me which burning question I am supposed to be avoiding?

Bohm, that "one version of the Trinity" ... You are referring to the orthodox teaching established in the 4th century and accepted by the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and Evangelicals? That one version? As for y'all being too dumb for me to share it with you, I must point out to you that I happen to agree with ATJ on the question: discussions about the Trinity are usually a waste of time on this sort of forum.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Jeff: Sulla, the problem with theology is that in it's purest form, it is nothing more then mental masturbation. I am really glad you get off on how much you think you know about your invisible god. It's your god, so it's your rules.

Heh. I know people who say the same thing about mathematics. They don't know what the hell they are talking about, either.

Jeff: I believe that I am exhausting you because you seem very intent on making this conversation about me and my education, which you know little about. Do you know? You don't know me, nor do I care to defend where I come from. If I don't know what I am talking about, that will be plain. If you know what you are talking about, that will also be plain.

I promise I don't give a shit about your education. What bothers me is that you haven't learned enough about a subject like the Trinity to have any sort of opinion worth listening to, but that this does not stop you from spouting your opinion. It's like someone who never studied math past basic algebra insisting that it is illogical to say there are more irrational numbers than there are rational ones, and who then gets pissy when somebody tells him he's just being stupid. In fact, that's not a bad analogy, since a mathematical dispute like the one I just mentioned simply can't be engaged in because one guy doesn't even have the level of understanding required to have an intelligent discussion.

Jeff: I absolutely disagree that Christianity is the true religion. There are many beneficial points to other religions in the world, and other views of spirituality.

This is what I mean when I say you aren't very smart. Who ever said there are no beneficial points to religions other than Christianity? Not me, that's for sure.

Jeff: I dont' want to insult other Trinitarians or Catholics by coming across as attacking their religion. If you and others respect Aquinas among others, then that is fine. Name dropping Catholic theologians who have been dead for hundreds of years means nothing. Unfortunately, you also think that reading theologians means nothing.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Not sure why you feel the need to be such a dick, bohm. But if I point out that smart guys have been thinking about the Trinity for a long time and that, therefore, we shouldn't be so hasty to dismiss their viewpoints, why does that irritate you so?

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Bohm: There is a funny thing going on here. First off Sulla claim most definitions of the trinity are exceptionally bad, inconsistent and wrong so it make little sence to treat individual definitions. fair enough.

Not sure what you mean, bohm. I think what I've said is that discussions on boards like this are not useful because popular definitions and understandings of the teaching are pretty weak. Indeed, I have maintained ATJ's problem is that he does not have an adequate grasp of the teaching and, therefore, says that it is illogical.

What I've said on this thread is that you are free to reject Christian teachings like the Trinity because you think they are untrue, but you aren't free to say it is not logical. You are especially not free to say it is illogical without reading enough about it to gain a reasonable understanding of it. ATJ clearly hasn't read enough to form an opinion that should be taken seriously.

161

Theological Arguments, Human Realities

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

as i have sunken to a new low in condescending posts (according to botchtowersociety, who truthfully is an expert on all things bullshit), it did occur to me that discussions, debates, and mud slinging insult matches on this board often have a common root.. let me put out there that i am not an atheist, nor an agnostic.

frankly, i respect your right to believe that god is a trinity.

that he is jesus.

Sulla

Tec, I readily agree we are dealing with generalities and that there are plenty of exceptions and counter-examples to anything we would say about the conversion process. That said, I think your generalization is worse than my generalization when it comes to thinking about JW converstion.

So, turned off by hypocracy and burdened by doctrinal disagreements, people turn to the even more bizarre doctrines and bottomless hypocracy of the JWs? I don't think you are entirely wrong to think of the process this way, but I do think you are missing the key elements of the process. Consider a couple facts.

The sine qua non of the JWs has always been the claim to have cracked the secret bible code, the one which tells us when the End comes, to within just a few years. That, and the claim that whatever orthodox Chrsitianity says about anything is wrong. Your idea that the JWs get points for being anit-war and anti-hell doesn't seem to have much explanatory power: if someone wants to hang out with nice, pacifist, universalists, why not join the Unitarians? Unitarians won't expect you to forswear education or sacrifice your baby if he needs blood -- significant benefits in most people's calculus, I'd think.

For that matter, if the converts' disagrement is over doctrine, how is it that the JWs' magnum opus against the Trinity (to pick an example) manages to completely misunderstand the doctrine? How is it that JWs seem entirely innnocent of any knowledge of the tradition of Just War, developed over 1,500 years or so, if pacifism is so important?

No, I think something else is requred to understand the process. That something, I suggest, is an unlovely desire and willingness to agree that a) the entire corpus of Christian thought is entirely mistaken in its essentials, b) the dudes who run a tiny American New Religion are the ones who finally got it right, and c) such information makes them morally superior to everyone else. Such a willingness is arrogant and stupid; it is the same sort of mindset that wants to rename the months of the year (Thermidor, anyone?).