Posts by Sulla

35

The End of Biblical Studies?

by slimboyfat in

a while ago i read a book called the end of biblical studies by evangelical turned sceptical academic hector avalos.

i thought it was really interesting perhaps because it mirrors some of the stages i went through as regards how i viewed the bible as i was leaving the witnesses.

at first i still believed the bible was inspired by god but learned to use different methods to interpret it than witness eisegesis.

Sulla

OGD, very quick question. And, I simply have to ask: were you ever a) a Circuit Overseer or b) in the Art Department at Bethel? Maybe I should ask as a PM...

I have thought it interesting to see that so many XJWs still hold what is essentially a JW outlook when it comes to scripture. One result seems to be that, having rejected the JW viewpoint, XJWs seem to conclude that they should also reject the Bible entirely. So, they reject the particular conclusions while still holding to the approach to scripture, missing the important idea that it is the entire approach that is wrong with the JWs.

So we read lots of, 'The Adam and Eve story is obviously impossible, so Judiasm and Christianity are obviously stupid,' or something similar from XJWs. Which is, as they say, not only not right, it isn't even wrong. Still, the folks who say that never had the grace of being humiliated by real experts.

27

Skirts and trousers (pants if you're in the US)

by Chariklo in

just what is it that the watchtower thinks is so much more modest and respectful to jehovah about wearing a skirt instead of trousers?

that is, unless you live in a culture that has trousers as the norm for women, as in india.. something today brought this to my mind.

i can't even remember what it was, but it led to thinking again about this.

Sulla

It's jsut a formality thing, isn't it? Women in trousers are less formal than they are in a skirt. Formality defined vey loosely as the constraints your clothing places on you.

26

Andy Griffiths Died

by mouthy in

jw
friends

Sulla

What a tight little piece of writing. Digging through the past, singing "Sinners Lose All Their Gulity Stains," over-reliance on rules, two kids who didn't like each other years ago get married...

I haven't seen one of these shows since I was too young to understand how good it was.

50

Anderson Cooper is gay!!!

by laverite in

according to the la times, anderson cooper is gay and no one was surprised about it.

was anyone here shocked by the news?

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-anderson-cooper-gay-20120702,0,1530321.story.

Sulla

The Department of Gayness, Official LGBT Registry has weighed in already? Then it is official!

jk. But everybody knew this already, didn't we? But what's this I hear about Rachel Maddow?

18

Is the Watchtower Society a Doomsday Cult?

by God_Delusion in

howdy guys and gals!.

do the jehovah's witnesses belong to a doomsday cult?

i wrote this article which asks the question.

Sulla

I am contractually requird to say that, while they are all about Doomsday, they are not a cult.

I would, in seriousness, disagree with yadda yadda 2's characterization of the JWs as being about fear and not love. They are certainly not about love, but I suggest that what they are about is pride. I think they are not so much afraid of Doomsday as they are proud of having figured out how to avoid it.

Does this distinction matter? Maybe not. But I think there is a difference between being on the Titanic and looking into the water with fear, and being on the Titanic and thinking you are the smartest guy around because you've figured out how to sneak on to the last lifeboat.

32

For those who have been pregnant....

by freshstart in

i wish i could be one those women who absolutely love pregnancy, i really do.

but i honestly don't care for it at all.

it was the same with my first pregnancy.

Sulla

Skip the gestational phase and go right to post-delivery. Better for everybody, really.

Glad to help!

47

I watched "Game Change" I`m curious about americans take on this movie,and their attitude to Sarah Palin

by smiddy in

i`m an australian and i am interested in world affairs,though i`m certainly no expert.previous to watching this movie , i have some information about sarah palin via media,and i know that can be biased , so what i am asking of you, the americans on this board what is your veiw of her ?

was this movie a true reflection of sarah palin ?

and if you can give me an alternative veiw of her please do so.. smiddy.

Sulla

I think Palin was about as well prepared to sit in the big chair as was the fellow who won the election, if we are looking at experience. Temperment? Well, probably quite a bit more so if I'm being honest.

49

Watchtower explains why it's NOT a Cult

by JWOP in

here is a youtube video showing a wt article trying to explain how it is not a cult, but contradicts itself and undoes their own reasoning:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2lac74n638.

.

Sulla

I would have to disagree, the CS are not as high controlling, there is no disfellowshipping.

CS are also not apocalyptic fear mongering as the JWS are.

Well, Finkelstein, what I mean is that these are all branches of the American religious experiment that begins in the 19th century and includes all these different groups that are only very loosely related to Christianity. The JWs tend to be more highly controlling than most of these others, but they are all rooted in the same American approach.

So proclaiming the world is going to end soon is not manipulative or coercive when they post pictures of calamitous

destruction on the front covers of their magazines ?

Well, no. Not more so than images of successful people attempting to sell credit cards are manipulative. I mean, in some sense it is an attempt to manipulate you, but ultimately your decision of which credit card to get is a rational one. Same thing here: the JWs are making their case and everybody is free to accept or reject it. But this gets us back to the whole question of volition I mentioned earlier.

Zico, I'd suggest that the Society exercises more control over people's lives than you think is appropriate (and more than I think is appropriate for me, too). But that is an opinion and not at all an objective fact. And, again, they are not exercising control over anyone's life who hasn't agreed to cede to them. If being a JW is a rational choice, made after considering the pros and cons, then we can't really make statements like you did. I agree that this is a semantic argument, but it is not merely a semantic argument.

49

Watchtower explains why it's NOT a Cult

by JWOP in

here is a youtube video showing a wt article trying to explain how it is not a cult, but contradicts itself and undoes their own reasoning:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2lac74n638.

.

Sulla

I take your points, cedars and jgnat. They are definitely a high control group who certainly flirt (at the least) with the c-word. The more I think of it, the more it seems to me that the difference in my head has to do with the questions about personal responsibility/volition and self-destructive behavior.

I tend to see the things we would all agree are cults as extremely self-destructive: suicides and mass murders (People's Temple, Branch Davidians, what have you) in ways the JW are not. Denying yourself education or career and the practice of shunning are certainly self-limiting and harmful, but these activities inhabit a different zone on the anti-social scale altogether. Moreover, I tend to think that joining the JWs is a rational choice, not the product of mind control or manipulation. I tend to suppose that joining a real cult has substantially less volition in the formula.

I think I could summarize thus:

1. We want to use the term "cult" because it is a slur. What we mean when we say the JWs are a cult is that they suck. Indeed, they do, but I think the term is not really helpful except in conveying hatred or them.

2. We use the term to reduce the responsibility of ourselves or of those we love who are in the JW movement. Let's face it: learning that your family does not love you is hard to understand (and I count the JW conditional love as no love at all). We would prefer to have our family be victims of others who are controlling their thoughts rather than admit they have made a rational choice against the love of their family. I understand the motivation -- believe me -- but that doesn't make it real.

3. Overall, I think JWs are properly placed squarely within the New American Religions movement of the 19th century. This places them within the mainstream of an admittedly very unorthodox bunch of actors: LDS, SDA, Millerites, Christian Scientists, whomever else. Collectively, these groups have dozens of millions of adherents and we aould be better off attempting to understand the JW experience by placing it in this context than attempting to understand it as a cult. When it comes down to it, they are much more like Christian Scientists than they are like Branch Davidians.

Regards,

S.

42

Was There Anything You Actually Enjoyed About Being A JW?

by MrFreeze in

i'm sure this question has been raised a lot but it is always good to look back.

the last 5 or 6 years of me being a jw, i did not have a very good go of it.

one thing i actually did enjoy was going to the international convention.

Sulla

Interesting stuff here.

Cheese danish! I really like the cheese danish. Shasta soft drinks, not so much.

I think I finally figured out who designs is/was on a different (shared) board. Ah, designs, very interesting!

Sheep2slaughter offered this up:

It's weird actually...it's like there was a certain level of fulfillment and entitlement or something intanglible I can't put my finger on. They credit it to holy spirit but that's not it. It's almost some narcissistic complex masked by fake self sacrifice blended with superiority by judging others. Kinda...

Totally agree. The central attribute of the JWs is blistering, unearned, pride. The religion feeds that, attracts those with it, gives them more of it.