Of course it makes sense, the Church has always been convinced in the divinity of Jesus. It is generally a mistake to think there should exist proof texts. But it is quite obvious that the Early Church Fathers held the view that Jeus was God.
Posts by Sulla
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22Is this valid reasoning for Trinitarian Doctrine?
by Flat_Accent ini had been watching jwfairytale's videos recently, and he's been including snippets of this short film about a guy that becomes a jw and then changes to a born again, or so i think.
you can watch it here.
it's very dated, but quite enjoyable:.
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23
607 and 1914
by snowbird inthose are just symbols that indicate a numerical value, but to me, they mean much more than that.. my clock showed 6:07 as the time a few minutes ago, and i immediately thought of 607 bce.. a friend's address is 1914 neighbor road - guess what comes to mind.. crazy, isn't it?.
lol..
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Sulla
"Scholar" was everywhere back in the day. Really good stuff; I remember he used to say that renowned Wt scholars laughed at secular historians who couldn't tell whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 or 588, while JWs knew it was just he single year, 607. Very excellent crazy-talk.
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Surprise Elder's Visit-FAIL
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Sulla
Very well done. By the way, you just got disfellowshipped.
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Sulla
Yeah. Well, let's just get a little context here. Anyone who has read ODG's posts should have a pretty good idea about the level of thought and education that goes into them. Near as I can tell, he hasn't ben much of a bomb-thrower here. So when he finds himself angry about anti-semitism, one might hope that the main response is polite disagreement with an explanation of intent. Unfortunately, the responses have not, in general, been that way.
This is a very odd board.
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30
Trinity Brochure
by flamegrilled inhas anybody heard an official reason that the trinity brochure is deceased?.
the gb have been released basically new versions of old brochures with wild abandon, and yet the trinity brochure which has absolutely no equivalent is no longer in print.. why?.
we all know there were dodgy references/quotations therein, but you would think by now the gb would have put some effort into a viable replacement if it were posssible.. nobody seems to be making too much of this as far as i can see.. the trinity brochure was very naughty.
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Sulla
The lift a quote from a 19th century American pastor who paraphrased Tertullian, connecting a sentence from Against Praxeus with a sentence from Against Hermogenes with an elipsis. They then asserted the whole thing was a quite from Tertullian.
After that, what else do you need? We're done with it, right?
I actually have had conversations with JWs about this brochure. My favorite discussion ended with the JW agreeing that there were some less-than-proper citation habits in that work and that the translations we actually have of the Early Church Fathers clearly show them to be "proto-Trinitarians," but that he suspected the translations themselves were biased. The discussion had to be paused while he worked through the Rosetta Stone Latin course (for Tertullian) so that he could evaluate the original Latin works.
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24
The WTS "Brain Drain"
by Quendi ini posted this on another thread and am pasting it here to start a new one because i would be interested in getting others' thoughts on it.. there has been a downward spiral in the quality of the written publications since the death of fred franz in december 1992. whatever else can be said about franz, the man did have some education and his writing was of good quality.
others in the writing department also had some skill and command of language that gave cogency to their work.
but since franz's death, a huge leadership vacuum has opened in the wts.
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Sulla
Jesuit Scholar, I think you have identified the extermination of the last hope for JW schoarship. On the other hand, there never was much hope; it must be impossible to move from pyramids predicting the End to serious theology. Right?
On the other hand, the Mormons show some signs of attempting to be taken more seriously. I've read serious defenses of some parts of their approach and heard of some LDS writers attempting to engage with non-LDS writers. Both of these small steps are impossible for JWs, it seems to me.
On the other hand, the LDS have one of them university things, which is well-regarded.
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Sulla
Oh, snap! But I thought it was a Bronze Age book, what am I missing?
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24
The WTS "Brain Drain"
by Quendi ini posted this on another thread and am pasting it here to start a new one because i would be interested in getting others' thoughts on it.. there has been a downward spiral in the quality of the written publications since the death of fred franz in december 1992. whatever else can be said about franz, the man did have some education and his writing was of good quality.
others in the writing department also had some skill and command of language that gave cogency to their work.
but since franz's death, a huge leadership vacuum has opened in the wts.
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Sulla
Interesting observation, Quendi. I think that the org has actualy learned a lesson over the last couple decades. I mean, it's all great to notice a decline in writing quality but those smart guys writing back in the day wrote some genuinely batshit crazy stuff. 364 pages of psycho-interpretation of the book of Daniel? 1975? The doctrine on blood? So, there's a way in which this might be a rational response away from the mad scientists who, despite their ability, were really just making shit up.
Moreover, given what we know about how Ray Franz completely understood the facts about 607 and lied his ass off in print, it isn't clear how far we should push the idea that there was some golden age of Biblical research in the JWs.
But a lot of that might just be a difference in perspective. I think the entire JW movement was always nonsense and never could be taken seriously by anyone who had a clue. Lots of others tend toward a position that leans more toward "reformation." From this perspective, the main problem with the JWs is a couple doctrines and too much authoritarianism.
I tend to disagree. I don't think there was ever a golden age for the JWs. Dunlop and R. Franz might have been nice guys who could write a coherent sentence, but the entire religion has always been completely absurd. They supported that absurdity until they were forced to stop.
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
Charles
Oscar
Finnegan
Trevor
Yancy
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173
Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs
by breakfast of champions inarticle found here.. .
those who grow up in an atheist household are least likely to maintain their beliefs about religion as adults, according to a study by georgetown university's center for applied research in the apostolate (cara).only about 30 percent of those who grow up in an atheist household remain atheists as adults.
this "retention rate" was the lowest among the 20 separate categories in the study.. there were 1,387 atheists (weighted) in the survey.
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Sulla
NewChapter, there was a considerable period of time after I was a JW that I had no religious affiliation whatever. During this period, I never once felt any sort of pressure to join a religion. This was deep in the American South, where one would expect, I don't know, something.
But, do I read you correctly to say that the pressure placed on you to join a religion took the form of being invited to study the Bible or hang out at Christian youth groups? And that this "pressure" is not sufficiently malign that you would wish to protect your child from it? Perhaps many people would view this an something more nearly the opposite of pressure. Tough to say.
But I am geninely puzzled that you confess such indifference to your child becoming a religious person, excepting Catholic or JW. You are an atheist and, therefore convinced that religions are teaching actual lies each week. How is it that you son't mind whether your child joins a group that is patently teaching lies?