Posts by Sulla

26

The Fear of Regret & Apostasy

by Emery in

first off a big thanks to everyone here, you have received me with much love and support.

i appreciate all that have contributed their time and hardwork over the years here at jwn.. this post here is directed to those who are on the fence like i was.

i hope this helps you in some way to understand both the doubts and indoctrination.. i am also currently an active jehovahs witness and have been for almost 20 years (26 years old).

Sulla

Hmmm.

Your individual investigation has been objective and unbiased? I wonder why you'd think that.

But I really am curious as to how the Ray Franz book can validate or invalidate the basis of JW faith. Seems to me, what Franz shows is the level to which the JW leadership is messed up. That should actually cause more problems for a JW who takes the book seriously.

First, it suggests that the basis of your faith was a group of men and not God. If you are the kind of person who until very recently had no problem with that, what makes you suppose you have the ability to objectively investigate your beliefs now? Shouldn't you have less confidence in your own analytical ability, given that you think you screwed up so badly?

Second, why does it seem that xJWs do this weird thing where, having accepted the bullshit ecclesiology of the JWs, they reject that and adopt the bullshit ecclesiology of Evangelicals? Is it merely residual anti-Catholicism? Very odd.

49

DO YOU WANT A FUNERAL?

by clarity in

jw
friends

i do not want a funeral.

i especially do not want anyone standing before my family.

telling them who i supposedly ... am!.

Sulla

I admit I don't get all this anti-funeral sentiment. I have already directed the vestments and casket style to be used (Trappists have a specialty in this). I'm leaning toward a simple, shaped casket made from pine -- though I am sensitive to the critique that over-simplicity is its own form of posturing: oh, look how humble I am. Anyway, that's up for discussion and I go back and forth.

I have no question that the vestments must NOT be white. Black is the appropriate color for funerals and the recent trend toward white is really unfortunate. NO CELEBRATION OF LIFE! You share the funny stories during the wake, but the funeral is all Dies Irae and weeping. You point out that the deceased was aiming for Purgatory and everyone hopes that he made it.

I have also instructed that my family follow my horse-drawn casket to the burial site, wearing black and barefoot. I admit this last instruction is somewhat controversial in the Sulla household and is most likely to be disregarded.

63

Why reincarnation doesn,t make sense.

by jam in

this accomplish?

the situation which surround the soul.

change with each life, therefore how does this allow.

Sulla

Huh.... Can you give just ONE example of a thing we're born 'knowing'?

Socrates' argument that the soul pre-exists the body was given by a conversation where he seemed to show that a slave boy remembered geometry, a topic about which he could not have been educated. The idea being that the soul already knew this information but had obviously forgotten it when it filled the body. Learning, in this view, is simply getting the soul to remember what it already knows.

35

Why you love America

by jamesmahon in

jw
friends

it struck me, as i guess it has a lot of people, that there are so many threads from both americans and the rest of us that seem to descend into america bashing.

i thought it might be quite nice to have a thread solely (and i mean solely - if this just turns negative i will call foul) on what we think is great about america.

as a brit who has lived and been over a number of times there are many parts about america that i think are great and thought is would be healthy to have a positive thread for a change.. so a starter for ten (with a few gross generalisations thrown in):.

Sulla

Aircraft carriers. We've about a dozen of those monsters.

24

What race or ethnicity would you think this old guy is?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i mean, to be so well-muscled at a wrinkly old age.... look at them gunz.. .

.

Sulla

I believe my cousin blared this at max volume in his camaro -- black primer paint job, fuzzy dice on the rear view, joint in the ash tray. He was so cool.

A chimp, given the slightest chance, will rip your face clean off. That Disney movie with the cute baby chimp is nothing but propaganda from the chimp-controlled Holywood propaganda cartel.

24

What race or ethnicity would you think this old guy is?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

i mean, to be so well-muscled at a wrinkly old age.... look at them gunz.. .

.

Sulla

Fucking chimps. I hate 'em. Damn them all to hell!

195

Theistic Evolution

by cofty in

thoughtful christians including scientists like francis collins and kenneth miller accept the evidence for evolution unconditionally.

the only thing that distinguishes their understanding of life from the views of dawkins is that they believe god planned and started the process intentionally.. just a word about the subtle but vital distinction between "theistic evolution" and "intelligent design".... over-simplifications alert - intelligent design is creationism in disguise.

it is a modern twist on the "paley's watch" argument.

Sulla

Sulla, it is interesting that you mention written tales of dieties of other cultures having interacted with humans in the same paragraph as your citing the written tale of your deity having interacted with humans but apparently don't equate them.

Not sure what you mean. I think that the old gods really did exist: Zeus really was some amazing guy (or set of guys) who was viewed as a god after his death. Gilgamesh (or his composite) really existed and he had a mother who was considered to be extra special in some way. I'm partial to Girard's approach to violence, sacrifice, and religion. In this view, the main problem to be solved for men is how to live together without society devolving into some sort of Hobbesian nightmare. Communal violence is the answer. Of course, it is also the problem. But that's another discussion, I guess.

But your point is again intriguing, how ancient is the idea of a deity that is remote, distant and only accessible unidirectionally through prayer? Has any cult actually attempted worship of a deity without some form of occassional claim of active presence?

I don't know: Plato, maybe? Pythagoreans? Not too many, I don't think. That's one reason I think Girard is on to something.

I'd hazard to guess a psychological necessity behind doctrines like the presence through the eucharist, or Dionysus proving his presence through annually changing water to wine. The perrenial absence of the deities is perhaps just too much to swallow without some form of reassurance of invisible prescence through rite and miracle.

Well, yeah. Unless you are some freaky Gnostic or Platonist or something. That's one reason sacrifice has been the way in which people worship throughout 99.999% of human existence. A corpse is real.

I really know of no practising Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus (or angel) isn't at least once in a while bodily nearby.

Heh. You should hang out with more Protestants, they don't do the Real Presence so much. Hell, most Christians don't really think Jesus even has a body now! True story: My old parish had a poster they put up during stewardship month (when you sign up for various activities for the year: teaching Sunday school, food drive, whatever). It said, "He has no hands but yours." The point being that Jesus, being a spirit, cant go around lifting canned peas to stock the food bank. After a week or two, they changed it out to a slightly different slogan: somebody had pointed out that the first poster was actually heretical in that it denied the Resurrection. The central claim of the Christian faith being that Jesus most emphatically does have hands now.

32

Why womenz are dumber than menz

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

the glorious insight of the old farts at bethel :.

why womenz are dumber than menz (and should not be trusted...).

in fact, (unwritten but implied) they should be beaten)!.

Sulla

Excuse me, but extraterrestrials are wll-known to have these really ginormous skulls. And, of course, they are far more intelligent than we. Same goes for homo ergaster and all the rest.

52

Leaving Jehovah's Witnesses is NOT the same as the doctrines leaving you

by Terry in

if you grow up speaking english and you move to mexico you don't automatically speak spanish, know customs, understand currency, possess skills.

for self-support or have any special insight into latino mindset.. .

why would you expect leaving jehovah's witnesses would leave you any less ill-equipped to navigate the real world?.

Sulla

Just a reminder that, bad as the JW effort at removing your ability to think is, at one time everyone here wanted it to happen. Even born-ins found the sense of complete rightness and complete knowledge intoxicating and desirable.

The problem is not that they harmed your thought processes as much as it is that we allowed and wanted it to happen. The problem is not in our stars, but ourselves.

195

Theistic Evolution

by cofty in

thoughtful christians including scientists like francis collins and kenneth miller accept the evidence for evolution unconditionally.

the only thing that distinguishes their understanding of life from the views of dawkins is that they believe god planned and started the process intentionally.. just a word about the subtle but vital distinction between "theistic evolution" and "intelligent design".... over-simplifications alert - intelligent design is creationism in disguise.

it is a modern twist on the "paley's watch" argument.

Sulla

I would imagine many more people would believe in a deity that was as accessable.

It is interesting, peacefulpete, to note that the oldest stories make the gods immediately accesible. In the Iliad, Ares actually fights next to Hector; Gilgamesh actually goes and has a conversation with his mother (who is a goddess) prior to leaving on his quest. And, of course, the ancient teaching of the Christians insists that God is really present in the Eucharist. The concept of a Christian God who is not physically present is a late innovation.

Of course, Jesus doesn't cook me breakfast. But he did for other people. So, that's something.

Your overall point that I think you are making, is valid' that pure reductionism cannot equip people to interact and live joyful lives.

I think I would actually go further: I don't think pure reductionism is a useful way to interpret reality.