Posts by Miles3

(some people follow Christ, and so God, out of love and understanding the truth of what Christ taught... that is the point I was trying to make. Not because they're going to get a million dollars if they follow; or an ass-kicking if they don't)

The million dollars, like the rest of the story, is not litteral. What some people get of their belief in God is not necessarilly a future reward - it is often more about the present-day skirt to hold on to. When it's dark outside and you're scared, it's no wonder many would love that reassuring skirt they feel gives them protection and cares for them.

202

I don't believe the Bible is Inspired of god - Why do you / don't you?

by cantleave in

many of you may know that i was brought up a witness and stayed in until the age of 42, even reaching the dizzy heights of being a congregation elder.

i was unusual in that, even as a witness i studied to degree level, on a part time basis, sponsored by my employer.

my first was in chemistry and my masters is in business administration.

Miles3

However informed they then become they still cannot say for sure that the God they believed and loved for so long doesnt exist.

Yes they can. 6 mass extinction events in the histoy of life on earth (not incluing the deluge, which we know didn't happen), billions of living beings killed, millions of species extinct, at one time up to 97% of oceanic species lost, beautiful living organisms not to be found ever again. There's no intrisic better value between an animal's life and another, us included. We hold the value of our fellow humans higher because we're of the same species (not saying it's wrong), but each species does the same, a wolf would value another wolf's life higher than that of a human for example.

The God I serve has shown himself to be stronger than the another god mentioned in the Bible. I need not look any further. I can't prove this to you of course but it underpins my faith. Once Moses found the burning bush he didnt look for another. Not all Gods are the same as Pharoah found out. Man makes many gods, including himself.

You're aware than the Israelites never were in Egypt, never had to leave it and there never was a Moses to lead those out of that empire? You're aware the people that later formed the country known as Juda come from a different origin than what the Bible says?

As for being "stronger", history has shown repeteadly that Juda's gods were weaker that those of neighbouring nations, Egypt included. Especially the YHWH one, since Juda's darkest times (military defeats, invasions, devastations...) were under the "faithfull" kings like Josias... You thus might want to reconsider your assertion...

42

SURVEY SAYS: Please take my quick survey

by Terry in

i thought it would be interesting and informative to create the following survey.. please cut and paste it in the 'post' section and type in your reply under each question.. .

let the survey begin 10 questions.

1.rate on a scale from 1-10 the postive impact (10 being absolutely positive) of jehovahs-witness.net on your life.. .

Miles3

1.Rate on a scale from 1-10 the postive impact (10 being Absolutely Positive) of Jehovahs-Witness.net on your life.

10

What negative impact?

2.Rate on a scale from 1-10 the negative impact of Jehovah's-Witness.net on your life.

0

3. When you are in close proximity to Jehovah's Witnesses what actual, palpable emotion do you feel?

Sadness over all that wasted potential and ruined lives. Pity. Love.

For the few "elite" that know perfectly the facts about the WTS and the lies, yet protects the organisation at all costs and ruin other people's lives, none of those feeling of course. They are despicable.

4.On a scale from 1-10 (10 being Absolute confidence) how confident are you that the Bible is an actual source of Divine Truth?

0
It's more that I'm absolutely confident it's no source for Divine Truth at all.

5.Current active believing Jehovah's Witnesses, if approached the right way, under ideal conditions can be convinced to question their own beliefs.

True or False? (Remember, this is YOUR opinion.)

Can't answer, it depends on the people. I beleive all of them deserve to be helped to see the truth, even if some will never want to admit it and would rather betray you.

6.Which best describes how you feel about youor current position on religious matters?

A. I am depressed, confused, ambivalent and afraid

B. I am actively investigating as objectively as possible.

C. I don't think anybody has any supernatural revelation. It is all self-delusion.

D. I have mixed-feelings. Some days I believe. Some days I don't. I'm actively praying.

C

7.Name three writers who have done the most to get your attention and cause you to question IF you are right. (Any authors)

Jung Chang and Jon Halliday (Mao: The unknown Story). Some articles online about the 6 great extinction events, some articles describing the way Scientology works. Then asking myself the right question about the Flood, and I knew the WT and the Bible were both bogus.

I still mistook them as sincere but mislead for a few month though (didn't research during that time, I prefered to concentrate on trying to reclaim what could be salvaged of the life I didn't have, still am in the middle of it). Then as I researched materials to help others, the writings of Alan Feuerbacher, Barbara Anderson and Randall Watters made me understand the men on top are really wicked people.

8.What is your greatest personal fear?

None I can think of. Fear is tiresome, and I don't have the health for that. Never was much interested in being afraid even when I was in good health, always felt like it was a waste of time and energy.

9.What is your greatest person source of Joy?

I'm still breathing.

10.If you could wave a magic wand and go back to any year of your life, any age, any place, any time---what would it be and why?

I'd just back go and give the kid I was information about the Watchtower I didn't have access at the time. The rest would have been ok, the only difficulties I had as a kid then as an adult were due to the cult, the rest of my life (school, work) was a breath of fresh air that helped me cope with the abuse. Still spend most of my time in the cult sadly, because I really was convinced by its lies.

Special optional bonus question: What Topics are you sick of? What topics would your like to see covered more?

I don't have the time to follow everything, but at the moment since I still have people I want to help in the cult, any subject about how to do that interests me a lot. Especially simple ways to show the lies in the publications, the misquotations...

32

"Disobedience is very costly"

by TOTH in

wow, i had some words with my father in law.

over the years i have always had such a profound respect for him because he used to speak from the heart and used the bible to express his view, but lately he has become more and more "wt-ish" with his comments.

my wife has been suffering from severe pain for years due to injuries suffered at the hands of her 1st husband.

Miles3

Well, as the wedding drew near my wife's dad decided that her marrying this doosh was not a good idea and he tried to break them up. He went so far as to beat her severely with a belt all over every inch of her body.

he said that there is no such thing as mental illness. All crazy people are possessed by demons.

You can't fix crazy.

As for the beating, seems like there was a reason your wife chose to marry an abusive first husband, and it's great she chose wiser with you.

I support Quandry's advice, when you're stuck associating with crazy and abusive whackos, life looks bleak whichever way you look and you can never imagine for you, your wife and your kids to ever get better. Then when for a reason or another you get out of the hole you're stuck in, your view of life completely changes and so does that of your family members. Especially with the intense pain your wife has, that's to strong for medication to have a notable effect, a brighter outlook and not being brought back to depressing situation does wonder. Hospitals notice significant decrease in pain medication and patients reporting less pain when engaging in clown and comedy activities, and I can confirm from personnal experience (living with crazy, then getting out is also something I can confirm ;) ).

I really hope you can get out, especially since the situation weights on you. Sometimes, even though you love the people (talking about your in-laws), they're really ruinning the life of anyone close by, and only having nobody around to complain to will give them the kick in the butt that makes them realise they ought to get a fricking life.

13

Generation - one more time

by johnnyc in

sorry guys.

i know i have brought this up before (a couple years ago), but my mother and i were talking (she is a ultra-jw) about the wt's generation, and she told me that the wt has never come out and said they took back the generation "timeframe" from 1914. she said they only changed who it was referring to - but nothing has changed on the fact within a generation from 1914 the end has to come.

well, i went back to the 1995 article, and really didnt see where the timeframe was explicitly changed.

Miles3

johnnyc, I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but for Russel the genaration started in 1874, not 1914. It was supposed to end in 1914. So they definitely changed the reference frame.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

Miles3

Forgot about hell: yes, it's call Purgatory. People that sinned, but aren't irremediably wicked can spend some quality time in Purgatory, then they can be admitted to Heaven if they've been good kids. I'd take that against eternal destruction any day! Especially since innocents don't go to Hell, whereas innocents are killed by Jehovah at Har-Maguedon.

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

Miles3

I happen to have chosen the three points raised in my opening post, since it seems to me that these are clear requirements that ought to be easy to identify in any individual or group. Are they the most important? I'm not saying that. I don't know. But they at least appear not to be trivial, so I chose to start with those. Shooting down JWs on those or other issues doesn't really help address the initial question.

You have not chosen those 3 points, the Watchtower has chosen them for you, which is apparent in the way you frame them and disregard all relevant information that shows the Watchtower doesn't even fit those points when coming from the scriptural angle instead of the publications angle. That's why you don't answer the points other people raise when they're issues your experience in the Watchtower has taught you to avoid, because they do show the Watchtower at fault. We've been through that phase too, so it's easy for us to recognise when the indoctrination kicks in - it did for us, even when we were assuring the person we were talking to of our utmost sincerity and desire to know the truth. I'm not discrediting whatever you could say, I'm just pointing that the way your frame some questions and disregard evidence is typical of a mind that's still in. It gets better though, so don't loose hope.

"Shooting JWs" on those issues does address the question, since you can't answer those unless you show why they're framed that way by the Watchtower, and why the Watchtower is non scriptural both in the way it presents the questions and the actions it says purportedly validates the Watchtower.

One thing that I would say in general from my research is I've learned that a lot of things have been recorded about ancient history, and the level of evidence for the "facts"asserted varies wildly. It's really important to peel off the layers and substantiate everything. The number of times I've checked out the "facts" and found that they led to suposition and conjecture is just astounding.

That's the general arguments from creationnists. All it shows is that those using the argument didn't bother ressearching the facts that would have contradicted their views, and only picked up (usually through a misunderstanding of the other point of view, or a misquotation) whatever could be construed as "it's a matter of interpretation". The presence of man on earth for at least 100 000 years is not a matter of conjecture, same for the impossibility of a biblical deluge, and same for the fact all evidence discovered up to know infirms Bible accounts till at least the 13th century BCE. That's not a matter of interpreting discoveries, it's just that the whole enormous burden of evidence infirms the Bible account. We do know what happened and didn't happen, it's not just a matter of jealous kings erasing the mention of Israelites. Biblical archeologists don't dispute that fact.

Don't let the fact alost everybody here discovered those facts change your opinion of our posts though, it's not because we're aware of what the castle is build on that we can't perfectly know how it's buildt. I can recognise when the mind control kicks in and ones stop at his opinion of the person instead of listening to the arguments themselves... that's Watchtower 101.

Now to go back to your really partial answer of my posts, you can't weasel out of the sword issue, thus recognising the issue is not clear-cut, and keep framing agape love in black and white war/no war. At the time of Jesus, centuries of fending of beasts had already taught humanity you only equip a sword when your opponents are other human beings. That's not opinions, just hard facts - those that relied on swords against animals just didn't make it. Unlike fanatic Jews, Jesus was against using physical violence against the authorities of his time though, and first century Christians did the same. Yet they didn't mind servind in the army, or using swords to defend themselves against bandits. Think about Corneille, why would the Bible not ever mention the fact he had to quit the army? The fact he was serving Cesar didn't enter into consideration, because it was not a problem. There were soldiers among those Jesus preached to (including the Jews), he didn't teach them to leave the army. There were soldiers among the first Christians, yet no letter of Paul tells congregations to expel them.

You are really letting the Watchtower frame the questions for you - it's really evident with agape love. You are not framing them scripturaly.

You didn't answer my points about love, except with the fallacy "we must have had different experiences". Pedophilia treatment is an organisational issue, so are the teaching about rape, abuse between spouses and disfellowshiping.

Just ask yourself: when was the last time I bought some food for a family in need inside the congregation, or give them some cash to pay the bills? (Alternatively, wait till somebody in the congregation doesn't have any money left, and see what financial help the elders are ready to give them with the congregation's money - opposed to what all other churches except the Witnesses do all year round) How often a month do I visit my beloved brothers and sisters that don't attend the meetings regularly anymore? When was the last time I visited sister Faithfull, who is bedridden in a nursing home for the elderly? When a disfellowshiped human being comes to the meeting, do I greet them and treat them in a human manner, or do I unlovingly make myself the accomplice of the mental abuse other Witnesses pour on those disfellowshiped ones? What do I do, at my own level, to not associate with an organisation that closes its heart to the suffering of women and children, and unscripturally protects pedophiles and abusers for the sole purpose of preserving its outward appearance?

As far as point 2, preaching, except showing yourself even more judgemental, you didn't address the issues. Other churches preach, that's how the Mormons, the evangelist, the pentecotists, the adventist all manage to outgrow the Watchtower day after day. They certainly must be doing something right, and God is blessing them!

About the 3rd point, maybe you realised that churches do assemble, thus you're only looking at two point when deciding who follows The Unscriptural Truth According To The Watchtower(C)?

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

Miles3

Certain truths are important though. For example I think it would be difficult to get close to God and believe in eternal torment at the same time.

You mean, as if a cult taught that God will soon kill 7 billions people, including innocent children and babies that can't even understand words, even less read, as he did during the flood and at Sodome and Gomhora? And you can't honnestly say it's not the case, because that's exactly what the Watchtower teach - I know many Witnesses that try to delude themseves it's not the case, but the publications do say so, and when confronted they try to change the subject or say we have to trust in Jehovah - even though Jehovah already showed us exaclty what he would do... Thing is, children's right, along with women's right, is a modern invention, and the writers of the Bible certainly didn't have any problems with that. Which explain the treatment of women and childrens in the organisation - a direct consequence of fondamentalism when it comes to the Bible.

Althought hell is a spitefull doctrine, at least you can get out of it after having been punished enough, and innocent kids and babies aren't supposed to end up there. Eternal destruction less so, at least according to the Watchtower interpretation of the Scriptures.

Just hypothetically if someone responded and convincingly demonstrated that it was possible to meet those obligations without the baggage that comes with our current framework then I'd seriously consider a different course.

People can give you answers that conform with your frame of reference, because they do exist even in that context. But you have to realise your first post is basically saying "Hello, I've chosen to disregard 99% of the reliable information out there; along with reality and facts, and I help you can guide me without disturbing my beliefs." People will be nice and try to help you, because that's what people are, nice, but you must admit they'd be more confortable dealing with facts and reality. Basically, you're telling us you believe in the tooth fairy, don't want to debate about its existence, and are looking to another church that also teaches the tooth fairy.

At present I accept that God is capable of preserving His word as he wanted it, despite who established the canon. But I am open to revision on that one if persuasive evidence is presented ot the contrary.

There's pervasive evidence the Bible we have is contradicted by reality. Geology, biology (bats are mammals!), paleontology, biblical archeology (not the beginning of the 20th century biblical archeology by pastors, modern archeology and modern discoveries the Watchtowers never speaks about, because that would open a bag of hurt and destroy their business), and I'm certainly forgetting a lot.

The flood didn't happen, there's no traces of it and civilisations that started before it happened didn't disapear, the animal species wouldn't fit in the arch, no God that taught the Israelites to take care of their animals would have killed billions and billions of animals to punish at most a few thousands sinners.

We have hundreds of sites with human remains dated from up to 100.000 years BCE, along with two other subspecies, and traces of fabrics, potery, inhumations, that predates Adam and are dated with multiple methods and clocks moving at different speeds, yet pointing to the same dates.

Reptiles appeared before birds, contrary to what Genesis says.

There's zero traces of the Israelites in Egypt, nor of their exodus, 3 millions of people camping almost 40 years in the same place in desert leave an awfull amount of traces, yet despite all the excavations we've only showed there wasn't anybody there at the time.

The conquest of Canaan happened at a time where Egypt ruled the land and maintained guarnisons and corresponded with the main cities, yet no mentions of those Egytpian soldiers in the Bible, and no mention of any conquest in the 400 egyptian letters of the time.

David and Salomon might have existed, but they were ruling over a few thousand individuals, and Jerusalem remainded a small village up to 200 years after Salomon's death... Salomon is supposed to have ruled an immense empire, which it is impossible to do without correspondance between the empire and correspondance with the numerous countries the Bible says wanted to see Salomon. We've got records and correspondance from other countries of this period, yet no mention of Salomon, the Hebrew, or anything close to it. And Salomon's empire covers land that was part of other empires at the time, who we've got plenty of remains...

Unlike what the Bible says, the first Israelites worshipped a Yahweh married to a goddess, monotheism appeared late (opposed to the Bible's description of a monotheism that got corrupted by pagan influences over time).

Unlike what the Bible says, Nothern and Southern Israel were most prosperous and at peace under the "bad" kings, and suffered poverty and war under the intransigeant "faithfull" kings like Josias...

Persuasive evidence abounds, reality has an atheist bias. Sorry to burst your bubble, but open any recent archeology, paleontology, biology, etc... book and you'll have all the answers you need - not those you're looking for though. As far as morals go, I'd trust somebody that doesn't allow itself to distort the facts to fits its fancies over any fundamentalist. Just once, try associating with atheists, you'll discover they're far more honnest and have better morals than your current conditionnal friends. Christians are great as well, but unlike atheists it can be harder to find true Christians (I suggest charities for a start).

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

Miles3

I'll try to address your questions first, but the vital part is not in those answers.

1) By this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (John 13:35). Sure I know that not all JWs do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine JWs will NOT kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.

Many religions forbid murder, and more religions than you imagine also condemn going to war. However, if you're just reading the WT publications you're still imagining the Witnesses are one of the only religion that does all of your 3.

I find it interesting that you frame the love issue as going to war or not. That's a doctrinal point, that's an apparence of love, and it's paraded as such by a cult that cares about the outward apparence and deserted Christ teachings. Some have already answered that, and sadly you didn't notice. You raise a doctrinal issue as proof of love, and for that doctrinal issue one could raise other Watchtower doctrinal issues that proves the contrary - the disregard for life (blood issue, doctrinal flip-flops about neutrality, civil service...), the disregard for childrens and women (the protection of pedophiles to protect the apparences, the guilting of raped women, the condomning of domestic rape, the lack of help to those victims when you tell them the need only pray more and trust in Jehovah to feel better), the destruction of families by the shunning doctrine...

As a JW in good standing (pioneer, talks in distric assemblies...) like you, I can assure you the Witnesses are one of the worst group when it's about agape love. That's part of being a high control cult, but you won't realise it before you start to associate with "worldy people". Inscribe yourself into a municipal association, go and help in a charity, check how much good your local churches do in helping the widow and the orphan - you'll find genuinely good and loving people, that don't show agape love only because they have to fill a report at the end of the month.

I've been raised as an outstanding witness by a single mom struggling with 3 kids and not enough money to pay the bills. I can assure you out of the 100+ publishers in our congregation, which where all aware of our financial situation, only one family ever helped us, twice, by bringing us some food (the brother wasn't an elder, and was one of those brothers the elder didn't want to give responsibilities because he didn't have a heart of stone). The elders never gave us anything, the congregation never either. That doesn't happen in Christian churches.

I was a pionner, and in all the congregations I've been I've seen how nobody visits the sick and poor. Disabled sisters never receive visits (unless they're from an elder family that cares for them), and the poor don't get any support. It's like "let them all die, God will recognise its own". On the other hand, I've seen first hand how most "spiritual" brothers and sisters are judgemental and unkind, whether towards worldy people or towards their own.

I've even had an elder tell me I'd never become an elder if I kept spending so much time associating with the rank and file. Shortly after, he was named a Circuit Overseer.

Then I got disabled, and had to stay bedridden for year (still have to). I only get 2 calls a year, coincidentaly just before the CO visit... Nothing else, no phone calls, no letters, no offer for help, no associating, even though they were my "friends" and I've given my whole life for the truth. And that's in the most spiritual congregation you could find (50% regular pioneers), in a foreign field, with most of the elders having done MTS and pionnering, and some moving on later to CO or missionary work.

The Witnesses aren't bad in themselves at all, most were quite good people before, but - like other high-control groups - the cult turns everyone but the independent thinkers into robots.

2) Preach the good news. Sure I know other religions try to an extent, but JWs are known for their preaching. One might disagree with the details of the message but I don't want to get into that here. They do certainly direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom.

There you're judging others again, not necessarily because you're a bad person, but because the WT propaganda has been ingrained in you that it feels -wrongly- like part of your personnality. Christian churches certainly "direct attention to God, Jesus and the kingdom". That's what they do, or they wouldn't call themselves Christians. As far as preachings, most churches preach the way the first Christians did, and I'd trust the example of the first century Christians over the personnal teachings of 20th century Rutherford.

The JW way of preaching has more to o with 20th century door-to-door salesmans practices than with anything Jesus ever taught. Picture Jesus coming back to earth at the end of a month and witnessing every one of his disciples forced to give a detail report of the "hours" they spent in the field. Whatever rationalizing you'd try to massage him with (but we need to be organized, we need to have law and order), he'd still throw out the Pharisees out of his church in no time, and go and clean Brooklin.

You know perfectly reports are there because as good businessmens the mens of the Watchtower are aware the Witness need that to go preaching as much as they do. That ministry is not a proof of agape love, neither is the different treatment people give to others in the congregation based on the hours they preach each month. If you want to be seen as "spiritual", you better spend more than 10 hours each month showing a group meetings than spend 50 hours a month helping and spiritually encouraging your weak, distressed, sick or disabled brothers - that's why nobody ever does it, even though Jesus would be horrified by it.

3) Gather together in worship. I include this one since I understand the arguments put forth in Ray Franz's book, but the NT really seems to be clear that some level of organized worship is required "and even more so as you behold the day drawing near".

All churches do that. Considering most churches do 2 and 3, and most do 1 better than the Witnesses (try it, you'll be surprised), and some of those also oppose military service, could the reason you haven't found one be that you've only be looking for a carbon copy of the Witnesses in those domains? Yet a clone of the Witnesses would mean another high-control cult that forsakes the spirit of the law for the apparences of Christianity...

As for military service though, consider that Jesus told his disciples to provides themselves with a sword. Whatever the Soceity wants you to beleive, you don't take a sword to fend of animals - a lance, a stick or an arc, but a sword would be useless. A sword is useless against animals, because humans don't have the reaction speed to fight an animal close range. Let a wolf or a bear into close range, and you're dead, whether you have a sword or not. A sword is only useful when fighting human beings, that's why hunter tribes didn't use swords. And a sword needs training before you can use one without cutting yourseld in the process, which means at least basic military training - the "martial arts" a Witness isn't supposed to do, because Jesus wouldn't want his disciples to use sword, would he?

Oh wait...

That post is getting long, fortunately the vital part is short and sweet:

You're letting the Watchtower frame your questions for you.

As long as you ignore that fact, the answers won't matter, because you perfectly know them, and you already know the truth about the Watchtower. You just can't (or don't want) yet ask yourself the real questions. Fact is, there is no spoon.