TNX, FREE.
Question: is this the only mention of it? I'm assuming the index/cross reference is reasonably thorough. No need to print other items, but how often has this been mentioned?
Mustang
mustang
JoinedPosts by mustang
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Mustang-Rebaptism
by Free2Bme in*** w62 6/1 330-3 why be baptized?
.. rebaptism necessary?.
11 due to certain circumstances at the time when they got baptized or due to subsequent developments, some have doubts about the validity of their past dedication and baptism, and they wonder if they should be rebaptized.
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Suggestions, please re ``placing'' free COCs
by Room 215 ina friend and i have come across a quantity of crisis of conscience in like-new condition, both english and italian editions.
we're in a quandary as to how to make best use of them.
we were thinking of donating them to the libraries or to perhaps cut a deal wth a local christian book store.
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mustang
RM215,
I would recommend a split between the EBAY suggestion and the larger, school oriented church libraries. If you are concerned with the theft/sabotage issue, the JW's aren't supposed to hang out in those libraries, anyway. And I suspect they hold to that tenet, if they do violate others.
If you give the lions share to the EBAY scheme, you may be able to make it self-perpetuating, as suggested. That would allow even more copies to go the other method. Some re-orders could even come from the church library idea, as well. Whether handled by you or the publisher, somebody else would get the benefit of the message.
BTW, as an aside: I'll ask this here since you originated this thread.
You may be more likely to see this one.On the subject of the baptism that you responded to on Kent's post, you mentioned that the 'rebaptism' thought was mentioned at some assemblies. Are there any WT references to this? Please reply either here or there. I have both bookmarked.
Mustang
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funniest signs
by buffalosrfree ini was driving down the street the other day and seen a sign for a store the sign read.. "kocks liquor" .
i immediately had visions rolling about my head.
talk about roflmao.
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mustang
For real: CRUMBLY CONSTRUCTION CO.
Mustang
Hey, Buff, long time no see -
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Apostasy DF'ing On Hold?
by MadApostate injust read the latest posts in the "just got home..." thread, and the posts regarding "no repercussions for apostasy" jogged my memory about something i posted about a month ago.. if you will recall, i posted that an old jw acquaintance had recently obtained my email address from a relative, and had sent me an email which i quickly interpreted as an attempt to get me to put my "apostate" beliefs in writing, so there would be "hard evidence" for a judicial committee.
there were 2 or 3 other posters who related that the exact same thing had occurred to them recently.. well, i haven't heard anything since, and i even encountered an elder at the supermarket over the weekend.
we didn't exchange conversation, but we did exchange quick greetings as he hurried pass me.. the funny thing is that my own family refer to me as "the apostate", with some totally avoiding contact, some only making contact for family business, and one or two fluctuating back and forth from normal to shunning.
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mustang
On a similar vein, I have mentioned the fireworks in my family over the years. (Obsessed Rutherforite, authoritarian Dad totally alienates all children with ‘do-more’; that includes my sister who ‘does everything by the book’. I’ve been an inactive ‘driftaway’ for over twenty years. My brother is inactive, but attends meetings with his family; its obvious he has reservations, but nobody mentions that.)
Well, Dad got so outrageous in his efforts to drag us back, demand and force respect and push his viewpoints that it was noticed by all. When ‘the children’ tried to get some justice from the congregation, they BACKED OFF, ROPED THE AREA OFF AND DECLARED IT A ‘FAMILY MATTER’. Notice the mixture of participants, in/out/fence-sitting.
Anybody else heard of this tactic?
BTW, “Obsessed Rutherforite, authoritarian” describes how things were done in the 40’s, when he started Dub-ism. He ‘moved where the need was great’ and started a congregation (which today is 3 congregations) where there was none. He is definitely a fossilized, dinosaur living in the past.
(Postscript: those efforts were based on informal actions. When Dad insulted some in-laws in another congregation, they got more formal.
In a review of things, Dad was stripped of his MS status for ‘disrespect to the Elders’. This was doubtless done as a final recognition of some of his actions toward the committee members, THEMSELVES. In my notion, this was a wrist slap; he should have been DF’d years ago, for gossiping, lying and meddling.)Mustang
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Vietnam War Pioneers
by MadApostate induring the same weekend conversation which stimulated my recollection of "1975 stockpiling", i also recalled the "vietnam war pioneer" phenomenon -at least that's what i call it.
i thought i would post something about it to see if others remember this.. during the 1960s, when the draft started to supply troops for the vietnam "conflict", a phenomenon developed in our area, at least, and i'm wondering if this occurred nationwide?
(i can't remember if this was officially handled in the mags and from the stage, or if it was just another one of those things that was affected quietly behind the scenes.).
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mustang
A subject, if not close to my heart, one of definite experience. I was the only one of draft age in my congregation, though several others would be later.
It was a time of poor to bad choices. Due to the JW’s scorn of education, I was discouraged from pursuing that properly. It was a waste of natural talent, as well as a source of consternation from friends and teachers.
I felt that I would stick around my home town to see what would turn up, job-wise. I would later find out that this was a real mistake. My home-town was a dead-end for any real job opportunities. My father did have a small business in which I worked on an ‘off-and-on’ basis. But that was a trap, too. It kept me under his roof, control and obligation. It did teach me a useful trade, which ultimately made a difference. I had to ‘get outta Dodge’ for that to take effect, though.
I considered pioneering and started doing so some time after my ‘graduation summer’ was spent. Being a small town, the Draft Board had little argument with putting me in the C-O classification. So, I advanced from a I-A to the I-O in about as soon as I could write a letter stating some reasons for the request.
It took about a year to get my 4-D; I went to the State Board on Appeal. I didn’t think it would go through, so I was preparing for Presidential Appeal. But, the card finally came in the mail one day. I remember being out in service and stopping by the house to check the mail, and there it was.
I pioneered about 4 years, then stopped. After a while I let the Draft Board know of my change of status. I was rewarded with a I-A classification and a lottery number in the high 200’s. I had taken to working construction. So, I waited out my year and got re-classified to a I-H.
Draft-dodging??? NO; I was available anytime they would have liked to have dragged me off. I spent the whole scene at ‘home’ and in plain sight.
In a more or less happy ending, I drifted away, left town, got an industrial job and started a decent career. Lots of lost time, spinning wheels and restarts, but I picked up the pieces and moved on.
My entire life has been spent around or with soldiers of one sort or another. Strange for a JW, but true. In recent times, I was discussing this with my close friend and business partner (now deceased). He was ex-Army, Viet vet and flew guns for small brush wars around the world.
He hooked me up with some guys that were doing Vietnam War memoirs for a book they were writing. They treated me with a certain respect and never called me a draft-dodger. They said, ‘hell, we were all doing our parts, CO or soldier’. They wanted me to write up a chapter, but I didn’t feel inclined to do so at the time. (Wish I had, now.) Last I saw of them, they were looking for a real, honest-Injun hippie!!!
There’s a tear in my eye for guys that I knew who didn’t come back, and for some who were never the same. Later, I realized that between Vietnam and the JW’s, you didn’t have to go there to get Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.
Mustang
Thanks for the forum -
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To Petermanna
by Liquidizer indear petermanna,.
the reason why jehovah's witnesses don't want you to study anything but their literature is that they can't without their own publications build up a mind control trap.
the teaching publications are so cleverly planned that they will lead you to the right conclusions from their point of view without you even notising if you don't pay any attention to it (which you have now done).
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mustang
PS TO: petermanna
As in some of the Daniel prophecy, (rewritten in the current book to cover tracks from the previous book) there is a lot of guesswork going on here. Poke hard at it and you will shake the CURRENT theme being put across. It is easy to back the JW’s into a corner on it.
Bottom-line: if anyone dwells on the matter and doesn’t quickly move along at the pace the study conductor prefers, it is an EMBARRASSMENT. This goes for the congregation Book Study as well as a private home Bible study.
Mustang
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To Petermanna
by Liquidizer indear petermanna,.
the reason why jehovah's witnesses don't want you to study anything but their literature is that they can't without their own publications build up a mind control trap.
the teaching publications are so cleverly planned that they will lead you to the right conclusions from their point of view without you even notising if you don't pay any attention to it (which you have now done).
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mustang
quote:
Dear petermanna,
The reason why Jehovah's Witnesses don't want you to study anything but their literature is that they can't without their own publications build up a mind control trap. The teaching publications are so cleverly planned that they will lead you to the right conclusions from their point of view without you even notising if you don't pay any attention to it (which you have now done). They make it appear like you'd have made your own conclusions and desicion to join by doing a lot of 'personal' study even though that is NOT in fact a case. That's why they don't want you to study anything else but their stuff because their religion doesn't stand the true biblical, historical or analytical scrutiny or research done by the help of the outside material or sources including their former publications. Their teachings may look well balanced but that's very seldom so.
endquoteWow, a good synopsis of the mind-control game. Of course, many have used the scenarios from Orwell’s 1984 as a comparison. This leads me to an observation.
Recollect the IBSA of Russell’s early days. They gradually picked up on the Trinity being questionable, then holidays became pagan, the 144,000 doctrine/question/ became an issue and so on. You get the picture. These matters were added on, one-by-one. This was truly in the fashion of earnest students uncovering things, as in peeling an onion, layer-by-layer.
Fast forward to the 50’s (???) and the infamous Walsh trial. There you have the famous ‘unity at all costs’ quotation (under oath, in a courtroom, by a high Society officer). Somewhere along the line things went from genuine study to ‘cast in concrete’, unquestionable doctrines.
Of course, they hadn’t totally frozen in their tracks. The 50’s also brought the discovery of DF’ing. This became the weapon of choice to enforce the rigidity of thought.
Mustang
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Org. Re-orging in JAPAN
by JWD infor those of you who haven`t been following it,the wts is in a downward spiral here in japan.fs hours are down,memorial attendance.
is down,pioneers are down,studies are down,donations are down,number.
of congregations is down and the number of publishers continues to.
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mustang
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=9862&site=3
: A New Scientific Discovery About J.W.'sJWD,
Please check this posting out. Mindchild has developed some research showing a motivational influence from physical properties of the universe on the religious effort, especially JW's. He posits that Japan is a 'heavy-hitter' area. Part of his research is undoubtedly done because of the fixation w/. statistics by the Dubs. (#'s are kept, tracked, worshipped and available.)
Anyway, while there is likely something of a correlation here, I believe that this is a 'second order' effect, not dealing with the primary concerns of growth or decline of the JW's. Please see if
you agree/disagree with his Japan thoughts.Mustang
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Incontrovertible Evidence
by indireneed ini am writing to gather consensus on what are the most incontrovertible evidences against jws.
i am working to 'deprogram' my wife and am trying to compile a list of those things that are the most difficult to stand against.. for example, i believe that the jw treatment of 'false prophets' and their distinction between those who are simply overzealous and those who are just plain wrong looks silly in the face of their historical blunders.. any opinions would be very helpful, especially with web-site references for good sources of information.. thank, y'all are super helpful.
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mustang
Venice had an essay on 'tacking' at one time, on her website.
Tacking became a 'plausible' (the fools will swallow it) sounding 'explanation' (excuse) for the vagaries of JW insights ('prophecies that we can't call prophecies').The trouble is WTS was really doing 'flip-flops', which are complete reversals (180 degree turns). Tacking only is a partial turn to go 'across the wind' not 'into the wind'. So the analogy is very poor and fails miserably. A really better descriptive term than 'tacking' would have been 'spinning your wheels'.
Someone documented about a half dozen reversals on the fate of the inhabitants of Sodom, as I recall. This is a good example of 'tacking' at its finest.
GodRules recent whining departure is another good example. He forgives the GB for their numerous mistakes as being 'only human'. This is NOT A TACTIC THAT THEY WILL DO FOR THEMSELVES. They take on the 'prophets mantle' with great trepidation, knowing the consequence.
So they 'blow it', with something that is wrong. They won't (can't) apologize or admit their error, as that is an admission of guilt. For in taking on this responsibility, they have said they are the ONLY CHANNEL, ARE 'SPIRIT DIRECTED' and are THE MOUTHPIECE OF GOD.
('SPIRIT DIRECTED': now there is a great one. They had to make up those weasel words to keep the lightning in the heavens and off their doorstep.)
They (the GB) knew the risk they are taking and can only brazen it out by claiming further omnipotence and daring anyone to dispute or take notice of the failure. The GB knows that it can't back up, but GodRules lets them off the hook. Sorry, the Bible, taken for what it says, doesn't work that way. If they were humble, as perhaps GodRules might be, they would confess and 'come clean' of their error.
Something along these lines, with lots of WT literature references over the years usually works well.
Mustang
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A New Scientific Discovery About J.W.'s
by Mindchild inhi all of you wild and funky people,.
by way of introduction, some two decades ago, i left the jehovahs witness ideology at considerable personal costs, from there went forward to get a quality college education and im now a research scientist at an american university.
a few months ago i, along with a team of international scientists, published a scientific paper that addressed a neural-behavioral discovery i had made many years ago that involved jehovahs witnesses.
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mustang
Interesting. I would suppose that the JW’s were picked because you had ‘been there’. But, on second thought, they happen to be one religion that has an obsession with numeric icons???. That does make it convenient, doesn’t it? A good and practical choice.
But I’m with Larc on this; that is about other influences. He brought up 1975:
“Are there any confounding variables? One I can think of, is the excitement over 1975 which caused a great increase in activity, followed by a drop-off in 1976.”
For instance, you mentioned Japan as being ‘on the geomagnetic equator’ & therefore being of a high incidence, relative to the USA. Incidentally the USA, being the JW origin, has traditionally held high numbers, probably due to the greater central activity of the headquarters. However, currently, the Japanese seem to be on the decline. Please check w/ the local Japanese correspondent, Duggan/JWD, I believe. He has posted on this in some detail, though not recently.
I would call this a ‘confounding variable’. Also, it looks like there is some other ‘prophecy integrity’ problems and potential scandalous matters coming to the fore this year and for the past several years. These would seem to be a ‘headwind’ to your current ‘tailwind’ effect. This might have the effect of indicating a ‘plateau’ now and a steeper fall later, relative to the trends you had mentioned previously.
It has been noted that the WTS is a well-oiled Business engine, their Engineering efficiency is adequate but not the best and that they are highly proficient with the Legal Beagles.
Business & Engineering wise, they could be hurt by the changing scenery with the Internet. And book publishing could take a backseat to such forms of modern endeavor as WTS would not endorse or utilize.
While motivational psychology is probably more important to the JW’s than the Bible actually is, it must be remembered that they ultimately are up against their ability to ‘throw the dice’ and call the shots on the ‘god business’. A few bad calls here will wipe out all the positive pulls that motivational psychology can ever add to their progress. Of course, their Legal squad will seek to enhance those deficiencies.
A ‘mainstreaming’ effort in the endgame might save the day for them. In that event, their uniqueness would go away and the numbers would stabilize or even come back up.
I see that Alan is all set to do a Fourier analysis for you, Larc. Since Alan has probably built a Spectrum Analyzer, you are in good hands, LOL.
Mustang
PS. Mindchild, I will email you w/ something of a similar nature, but totally 'off topic' to this board.
PS#2.
DISCLAIMER #2:Anything that I write on this posting (and prior posting's on this site and the previous H2O’s) is (or was) intended as an expression of both personal Religious Freedom and Freedom of Speech, as guaranteed in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as the "free exercise", as well as "freedom of speech" clauses.