i got new neighbours a couple of months ago.
to get straight to the point, i'm sure the husband is knocking his wife about.
i can hear him shouting and screaming and loud thuds and bangs, sometimes late at night and even last week he was so loud that he actually woke me up at 7.30 in the morning with his behaviour.. i really feel intimidated by him.
Mimilly & others
It really restores my faith in the world when I read clear cut posts like yours: People matter, how tricky can it be to help? You don't have to skirt the issue, that was the elder's job remember? Just do the right thing. Common sense is so uncommon in this world.
joe and barbara anderson will be representing silentlambs.org at the victoria boer sexual child abuse trial in toronto, canada that will begin on sept. 9th.
the andersons need a place to stay for approximately one night in toronto during the trial where barbara will be called to testify against the watchtower.
in addition, if they could find a place to stay somewhere near northern indiana or michigan, on the way from tennessee to the trial, and a place to stay when they return, it would save silentlambs motel costs.
If a LOT of us put in a little $$$.
We can help out a good cause and some very good people.
How about it?
Edited by - nanoprobe on 30 August 2002 18:58:0
the watchtower once believed that if a woman did not scream while being raped, then she was guilty of fornication.
she was 'in on' her own rape, thus she too is just as guilty as her rapist.
i don't think there is a person in this forum today, who does not find this reasoning repugnant and archaic.
Six:
This subject is important to me for two reasons.
1) I would like a clear answer to the question, "Does God hate women"?
I was raised in Christendom and never thought he did, but during the 27 years in the Borg, it has been a question that has plaqued me. As a woman it is hard to reconcile the fact your creator hates you because you're female, yet he made you female.
2) I stopped attending meetings less than three months ago so Im not capable of discounting the Bible at this point in my life. So can we work from the viewpoint that the Bible is the Word of God? ( Although FiveShadows has a good point.)
Therefore I would like to reason on the scriptures application.
But what if she was too afraid to scream, Nano? I dont know, is it possible to train a little girl to always scream? Or what if she had been taught by abusive parents not to scream? Did that kind of abuse exist in Judaic times? The Bible doesnt actually mention it. What if it was her father who raped her? Thats one of the things left out of the list of forbidden sexual acts, is it because it didnt happen? What causes men to rape or fathers to commit incest? Do the same conditions apply now as 4000 years ago?
As recently as 20 years ago in the United States rape laws were very anti-women. I had a friend who was raped late 70s or early 80s (not sure of year now) She was driving near her home in the country with her too very young children strapped in their car seats. She saw a neighbor man she knew broke down on the side of the road. It was a trick he planned it. She fought him up and down the road and he raped her. She went immediately to the Sheriff; most of her clothes were still thrown on the road. It went to court she lost. He said it was consensual and his lawyer tried to ruin her reputation, too. I would have thought that was impossible because she was married with two children but back then lawyers always tried. Because of this women often did not press charges. It has only been with a terrible outcry of American women have rules of evidence in rape cases (regarding the womans past, etc) are now forbidden and lately DNA testing has forced justice to prevail.
Now the point of that story: In America in the 20 th century a womens word did not convict a man of rape, but it did in Deut 22:25
But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man should die.
Now how can one passage in Deut respect women and the other condemn them?
my jw sister and i are on good terms, and i talk to her on a regular basis.
on the other hand, i have a jw cousin who i hope never to talk to again.
i have only seen her once in 30 years and that was at my sister's daugher's wedding.
sixofnine, email me
the watchtower once believed that if a woman did not scream while being raped, then she was guilty of fornication.
she was 'in on' her own rape, thus she too is just as guilty as her rapist.
i don't think there is a person in this forum today, who does not find this reasoning repugnant and archaic.
little witch, of course has given us the correct answer.
However Id like to explore the question: Is the Watchtower applying this scriptural text correctly?
First of all: What effect would such a law have on the people of that time period?
Witnessing one stoning and believe me Im changing my rules.
Just a few ideas:
1) As a parent I would teach my daughters to be SCREAMERS. We would practice screaming like your life depended on it. (I personally am a screamer, if you grab me I start screaming, I dont reason, I dont think, I just scream until my throat is hoarse) I would teach them to never be alone if it could be avoided.
2) I would teach my sons to stay away from situations where there was only one girl present.
3) If this meant your childs what else would you do?
I read a whole series of TIME/LIFE articles on the women of Afghanistan. Even though those poor women were draped head to foot--- rape was very common. In fact it was so common that the Taliban womens word for it was laying down. Thats all they could do lay down and endure it. They couldnt report it because no one would believe them anyway. At least in Israel they had some recourse.
What I think is important from an understanding of those scriptures about screaming is the circumstances.
Let's pretend that I live in a city with a 3-minute response time to a 911 call and someone breaks into my house. Can I survive for 3 minutes? That's my decision to make. However, most people do call 911. Now let's pretend that I have 911 panic button hanging on my neck and it's my next door neighbor who will respond with gun in hand. I'm pushing the button, because I know the neighbor can be there in 25 seconds. I also have no guarantee I'm getting out of this alive so I'm willing to fight for a chance.
On another thread I said: In ancient Israelite cities---- there was no automobile/traffic noise, no airplanes overhead, no concrete trucks pouring next door, no televisions, no radios, no electricity and in fact, not even any glass in the window openings. Also women didn't work outside the home, children didn't go to school and men didn't commute. People were all around. If a woman screamed she had a very good chance of being heard and immediately rescued before she was injured. The SCREAM was like the panic button.
Notice the same law did not apply to areas where she would not be heard.
my jw sister and i are on good terms, and i talk to her on a regular basis.
on the other hand, i have a jw cousin who i hope never to talk to again.
i have only seen her once in 30 years and that was at my sister's daugher's wedding.
Thanks, Tex, you're not intruding. Now as we look back on the whole incident it seems pretty hilarious. When they called us into the back room the elders explained: The pedophile & his family were telling everyone he was innocent and we were telling everyone that he was a convicted rapist. They said we were causing divisions even inside families as one member would believe us and another would believe them. They said this very sincerely as if it was a logical statement. I can't think back on that today without laughing.
In the back room ****** had an all out fit and called the former PO a bald faced liar, and what was so funny was the elders didn't even attempt to deny it. The PO had just packed up and left (his exhaust fumes were still fresh in the parking lot)(and I know why, too) But the elders just sit there and didn't defend him at all. I laugh so hard to recall that incident, it was like they said, "yeah, we know."
One elder explained, " I am talking to you today because I"M A COMPANY MAN" And then gave us his little spiel, today I I condense that speech to: WE DON"T BELIEVE IN GOD, if we believed in God we won't have the nerve to do this, so are you stupid enough to continue to believe in GOD? It was a quick re-programing course so see how much we saved on therapy? And that's pretty funny too.
We (mostly my truly fearless husband) gave them an all out battle for months on end, but it did no good. Except it let the victim know that we did not condone this activity and it let those elders know that their little game would not be hidden. The CO and the service dept got plenty of words too.
The terrible truth is that very few witnesses will stand up for righteousness and that has made me decide that going to meetings is a waste of time. They would have gained more by watching Schindler's List, or reading the Scarlet Letter, or other activities.
Edited by - nanoprobe on 29 August 2002 15:24:41
this is, i believe, a very important scripture for jehovah's witnesses to read -- because it proves that in the mosaic law, there was a one-witness policy for rape!.
i want to give a huge thank you to "nanoprobe" for pointing this out on another thread!
i think everyone should ask the society about this scripture!.
Cruzan, and where on earth did a nice little witness girl like you come up with that "wild" sixties kinda of a
name? J
Deuteronomy says that if one girl heard the tree fall --it happened. The society says, "no, way"
Edited by - nanoprobe on 28 August 2002 16:52:5
my jw sister and i are on good terms, and i talk to her on a regular basis.
on the other hand, i have a jw cousin who i hope never to talk to again.
i have only seen her once in 30 years and that was at my sister's daugher's wedding.
Well, Elsewhere
Not Df'd but called the backroom and slapped a little. So we moved. However, family members that stayed in the hall a little longer were "marked". Once those elders start on your case they are pretty relentless aren't they?
FiveShadows:
If you think you would be comfortable visiting with and encouraging a Pedophile who's sole purpose in returning to the victim's hall seems to be to intimidate the child, then please go right ahead. Actually there were a few of those in our hall.....people who knew the truth about the rape and didn't care, so do I know you?
this is, i believe, a very important scripture for jehovah's witnesses to read -- because it proves that in the mosaic law, there was a one-witness policy for rape!.
i want to give a huge thank you to "nanoprobe" for pointing this out on another thread!
i think everyone should ask the society about this scripture!.
Thanks for noticing, UNDE !
The WTS basically tries to picture God as cruel and disliking women.
What I think is important from an understanding of those scriptures about screaming is the circumstances. L et's pretend that I live in a city with a 3 minute response time to a 911 call and someone breaks into my house. Can I survive for 3 minutes? That's my decision to make. However. most people do call 911. Now let's pretend that I have 911 panic button hanging on my neck and it's my next door neighbor who will respond with gun in hand. Even if the criminal is physically very near to me and holding a weapon I personally think ---I'm pushing the button, because I know the neighbor can be there in 25 seconds. I also have no guarantee I'm getting out of this alive so I'm willing to fight for a chance.
On the other thread I said: In ancient Israelite cities---- there was no automobile/traffic noise, no airplanes overhead, no concrete trucks pouring next door, no televisions, no radios, no electricity and in fact, not even any glass in the window openings. Also women didn't work outside the home, children didn't go to school and men didn't commute. People were all around. If a woman screamed she had a very good chance of being heard and immediately rescued before she was injured. The SCREAM was like the panic button.
Notice the same law did not apply to areas where she would not be heard.
But today circumstances are much different also even if you are heard will anyone help? Today the criminals have guns and can shoot from a distance, etc, etc.
Maybe its not the law in Deuteronomy that was cruel but it is the way it is applied today. (and are we under law anyway?)
Also I tried to find a Question from Readers regarding Lot's Daughters. It my memory it said something to the effect that Jehovah apparently viewed the assault of a male (homosexual rape) as worse than the assault of a woman (Vaginal Rape) Couldn't find that info. Does anyone have it? I think the FDS's thinking on this situation has a bearing on their pedophile policy today.
I found this on the 1999 CD...but I don't think it's entirely what I remember.
Was it not wrong for Lot to offer his daughters to the Sodomites? ( Watchtower 1979 Questions from Readers 12/1)
This account has puzzled or disturbed many, particularly women. Some persons have even charged that Lot acted in a cowardly way, that he should not have offered to pay for his guests safety with his daughters virtue or that he should have given himself to the mob............ This account is a valuable part of the Bible. It serves to accentuate Sodom and Gomorrahs badness, it stirs up indignation in righteous ones who read it, and it manifests Gods disapproval of homosexuality
Edited by - nanoprobe on 28 August 2002 14:55:30
Edited by - nanoprobe on 28 August 2002 14:58:6
my jw sister and i are on good terms, and i talk to her on a regular basis.
on the other hand, i have a jw cousin who i hope never to talk to again.
i have only seen her once in 30 years and that was at my sister's daugher's wedding.
Our family shunned the resident sex offender and his parents at our last kingdom hall. This family thought it would be fun to come to the same hall as the victim (a four year old) They complained to the elders that we refused to respond to even a Hello from them. It was fun looking at them as if we couldn't see them
