dropoffyourkeylee

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Posts by dropoffyourkeylee

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  25

  Things Rutherford got wrong that Fred Franz had to clear up

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was interested by the suggestion in a recent discussion that rutherford was in some way preferable to fred franz, because i’ve not come across this view before.

  it made me rethink my assumptions and try to work out why i hold the opposite view and prefer fred franz to rutherford.

  i haven’t done any additional research, so i’m only drawing on what i can remember off the top of my head, but i thought i’d list a few things where i reckon fred franz’s approach was preferable to rutherford.

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  I've long had a theory (for which I have no real evidence at all), that a lot of the do's and don'ts that were determined to be disfellowshipping offences came about from the post-1943 Gilead missionary expansion. As the JWs started to proselytize in third world countries, they came across lots of problems that never or rarely had come up before. Polygamy, diet (eating blood products, which transfusion was equated with at that time), forced political party membership, spiritistic talismans, consulting witchdoctors, superstitions, probably lots of other things. The missionaries were faced with the question,'Do these people need to change these practices or not to be JWs'? The questions ultimately came down to Knorr and Franz. Knorr decided on an organizational level and Franz made up/ wrote the scriptural reasoning. They went down a rabbithole of creating a Talmud-like body of decisions that they are still having to live with.
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  25

  Things Rutherford got wrong that Fred Franz had to clear up

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was interested by the suggestion in a recent discussion that rutherford was in some way preferable to fred franz, because i’ve not come across this view before.

  it made me rethink my assumptions and try to work out why i hold the opposite view and prefer fred franz to rutherford.

  i haven’t done any additional research, so i’m only drawing on what i can remember off the top of my head, but i thought i’d list a few things where i reckon fred franz’s approach was preferable to rutherford.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dropoffyourkeylee

  I could live with Russell's goofy 19th century beliefs, and with Rutherford's booze and megalomania. But the things that really make me scream came from the twisted minds of Franz and Knorr. Disfellowshipping, higher education, exclusionary world view
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  25

  Things Rutherford got wrong that Fred Franz had to clear up

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was interested by the suggestion in a recent discussion that rutherford was in some way preferable to fred franz, because i’ve not come across this view before.

  it made me rethink my assumptions and try to work out why i hold the opposite view and prefer fred franz to rutherford.

  i haven’t done any additional research, so i’m only drawing on what i can remember off the top of my head, but i thought i’d list a few things where i reckon fred franz’s approach was preferable to rutherford.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  dropoffyourkeylee

  The flag issue was one. Rutherford presented (and lost) the Gobitas case as freedom of religion. In Barnette, Franz/Knorr/Covington reinvented it as a 1st Amendment case of freedom of speech, which they won.

  edit to add: Identifying as a 'religion'. Under Rutherford, all 'religion' was a snare and a racket. We are not a religion, have no clergy or creed. About 1950, (a dark blue book, I forget the name of it) Franz et al changed it to 'there is true religion and false religion'. I believe this one falls under the umbrella of doctrinal changes to support draft exemption claims. All JW men are 'ministers', so they had to identify as a religion in the government's eyes.
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  127

  What does the Catholic church think of JW?

  by Halcon in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  on a trip to rome a few years ago i asked my friend (who is roman and jw) what the catholic faith thinks of jw.

  he simply stated that jw is tolerated by the church but that really not much thought is given to them.

  is there an official stance on jw by the catholics?

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  In the Russell days, they referred to dedication as consecration. The present JW folderol of 'dedication and baptism' consists of studying through doctrinal books, answering questions on the creed/beliefs to the satisfaction of examiners, 'dedicating' to God (the only part of this which is private), official baptism in public with the date recorded permanently, and later the added baptism vow containing verbiage to identify as a JW in association with the WT religion.

  I maintain that this constructed process was invented primarily for legal reasons to prove in court that a person was a practicing JW. This came up in the Rutherford and associates 1918 trial where men were claiming to be members of the faith and exempt from the draft, but the WT didn't have a way to substantiate their claims. It's part of what landed Rutherford in jail in 1918. Back then it was all about the draft.
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  72

  Did the Fred Franz style of writing cease after he died?

  by SydBarrett in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was completely out by 1991 and 1989 would have been the last time i had to attend regularly.

  that over the top franz writing style was still there in the 1980's although i've heard he wasn't actually doing much writing by then.

  but his style was definitely picked up and imitated for many years beyond its wacky, outlandish peak of the the 50's - 70's.

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  If I ever start believing Catholicism is any better than JWism, just shoot me. Both are total bullshit
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  72

  Did the Fred Franz style of writing cease after he died?

  by SydBarrett in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was completely out by 1991 and 1989 would have been the last time i had to attend regularly.

  that over the top franz writing style was still there in the 1980's although i've heard he wasn't actually doing much writing by then.

  but his style was definitely picked up and imitated for many years beyond its wacky, outlandish peak of the the 50's - 70's.

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  Good comments, all, observing that change in writing style is more than simply a change of personnel. I would add to the mix that the multi- language organization means that translators need something easy to work with, without the convoluted wording that Franz-era writers were addicted to.
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  72

  Did the Fred Franz style of writing cease after he died?

  by SydBarrett in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was completely out by 1991 and 1989 would have been the last time i had to attend regularly.

  that over the top franz writing style was still there in the 1980's although i've heard he wasn't actually doing much writing by then.

  but his style was definitely picked up and imitated for many years beyond its wacky, outlandish peak of the the 50's - 70's.

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  2. 
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  dropoffyourkeylee

  There are methods researchers use to identify the probable author of books and articles, use of vocabulary and grammar, etc. There are enough audio clips of Franz speaking and known examples of his writing that it would be really helpful to see the results of such analysis on WT literature. I don't know how to do it myself, but it would be quite interesting.
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  94

  Jephthah's Daughter

  by cantleave in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

  the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

  how could they visit her if she was killed?.

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  KOW:

  Good post, I appreciate the additional context. I had never heard the name Seila associated with the account.
• 
  94

  Jephthah's Daughter

  by cantleave in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

  the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

  how could they visit her if she was killed?.

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  It's clear to me that it is a case of human sacrifice. I'm not sure if anyone else besides the WT has tried to whitewash it; I expect the WT picked it up from someplace.

  It's interesting that the story made it's way into the Hebrew text. One Bible dictionary which I have on my shelf (Hasting's) suggests it has mythic roots connected to 'weeping over Tammuz'.

  edited to add: Oldtime JWs were particularly fond of the story because it was the subject of the first-ever Bible Drama at a summer convention, probably about 1960 or so. They used to gush over telling the story of the first Drama back when I was a kid.
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  12

  WASHINGTON ST PASSES BILL MANDATING CLERGY REPORTING CHILD ABUSE

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://www.thereflector.com/stories/washington-legislature-passes-bill-to-make-clergy-mandatory-reporters-of-child-abuse,378913 .

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  dropoffyourkeylee

  Why Watchtower needs a law to FORCE them to do the right thing is what has always baffled me.

  Likewise.

  The WT has a policy which is clearly just wrong, then they fight in court to keep from being forced to do the right thing. Then they have the misguided nerve to claim that it is scriptural and 'legally defending the good news', or some such thing