Posts by vienne

6

The First Judicial Committee?

by Wild_Thing in

jw
friends

i was wondering ... when do you think the first judicial committee took place?

can you imagine being the guinea pig for that kind of fiasco?

i bet they were like, "what kind of bullshit is this?".

vienne

Scratch,

I thought I knew of all of the Russell lawsuits. I'm not certain I know which you mean. Will you please elaborate?

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

I agree to the extent that Watchtower 'governing body' theory isn't scriptural. That means Watchtower authority structure is self-entitled. That's also true of every other ecclesiastical body with an authoritarian structure beyond the local congregation.

I suppose that if we have a religion we ought to be confident that we have 'truth.' But shouldn't there always be at least some doubt, some question about how much we get right? Some criticize Witness changes of doctrine. They should change when they're wrong.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

Slim,

A partial rough draft, work in progress, of my Writing Partner's intro essay to volume 2 is on our blog. He touches on Gruss's work. http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2017/10/okay-so.html

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

In the past two years I've attended two meetings and one convention. This does not mean I see the Witness organization as 'truth.' But since I've chosen to pursue their history, I have some need to stay current. I associated for some years with Church of God - General Conference [Atlanta]. We parted company amiably. They're Socinian. I am not. But there are many within Abrahamic Faith bodies such as CoGGC that are good people and as true a Christian as anyone else.

I let Witnesses in whenever they call, feeding them cookies or cake and coffee or tea. I listen politely, debate respectfully. If you're asking me what I think of Witnesses, I believe many are fine people, harmless, zealous for what they believe. Do I think the Watchtower is God directed? While I cannot say God does not direct some Witnesses, I do not believe that there is any sort of evidence that the Watchtower is his organization.

I would not discourage anyone from examining Watchtower belief. For some, being a Witness at least keeps them out of trouble. But do I see it as rational, biblical, and God's own? No.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

F,

Not the way I'd say it, but ultimately not an unexpected feeling. And not a statement with which I can't at least partially agree. Watchtower scholarship is often on the shallow side. Where they tend to shine is in simple exposition of Bible expectations. Otherwise their record as 'scholars' is over stated and poor.

I disagree over motives, as I've said. I'm comfortable calling Witness leadership 'self-entitled.' I'm not comfortable with corrupt. However, they do want people to share their belief, to be centered on a group of men they call the Governing Body instead of on Christ. Probably we're not nearly as far apart as it may seem.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

F,

Obviously, you can't step away from ad hominem.

Slim,

I respect your comment. Practice and written word often differ within the Watchtower organization. My experience beyond what the Watchtower has said rests with a Witness relative who supported a child care agency in India which was not associated with Witnesses at all. I'm not aware of anyone making an adverse comment. And F is right that no Witness would donate to a religious charity.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

F,

That's BS. The real issue is that you want to paint your former associates as wicked and will say anything, no matter how incorrect, to do so.

The statement on charities is plain. Witnesses benefit from some of them. Some of them are faulty.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

Simple unintentional mistake? Really?

You think they pointed to 1975 knowing that it was contrived and expecting a mass exodus of members?

Franz was an old time Russellite. He was imbued with belief that the 6000 year theory was correct - that Christopher Bowen's chronology was accurate. He used it. The Watchtower still uses it, though without attribution to its original source. It wasn't a simple mistake. It was 'true belief' in a false theory.

F, you have a habit of misstating what others say. That's the problem here.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

F,

You write: "So in other words you just want to refute any information that goes against your own findings about the IBSA/JWS"

No. I want to refute poorly formed, irrational arguments that have no foundation. The one with strong personal bias here is you. Either you do not know the meaning of the words you use, or you purposely use inflammatory words that to not rightly characterize events. You degrade your points by doing so.

83

True or False did the Watchtower Corporation create false doctrines intentionally to enhance the proliferation of their own publications ?

by Finkelstein in

much as been revealed over the years to the date setting doctrines made by the wts.

such as ( 1874, 1914, 1925 , 1975 this generation, the last days, the end times etc.... which were not created by other christian based faiths.. as to critically examine why might reveal a hidden agenda to all these date setting proclamations.. the point in question is did the wts and its leaders intentionally manipulate or exploit the preaching of the gospel to enhance the proliferation of their own printed publications ?.

i would say convincingly yes, no question.

vienne

Favorable bias? I wouldn't say that. As a historian I feel it isn't ethical to attribute bad motive where other explanations suffice. Sometimes motive is 'bad.' In our books we point to several instances. In volume one of Separate Identity we point to L. A. Allen's apparent sexual relationship to one of the Watch Tower evangelists, but we use her own words to 'go there.' We point to Russell's self view that in the period we cover [up to 1887], he was God's special agent, a teacher of teachers. But we use his own words to do that. We point out that Barbour was a thief and a liar. But we use his own words to do that.

Attributing motive where there is no firm evidence is wrong. And doing so would make us like E. C. Gruss who simply made up his 'history.'

Many on this board feel hurt by the Watchtower. I understand this, and my own experience with Witness elders is almost entirely negative. But some of those who feel hurt express themselves irrationally. Assume someone is disfellowshipped for what? Sexual issues will do. They did not wish to live the life of strict adherence Witness culture demands. That is their choice. Personally, I don't care what others choose to do as long as it does not hurt others. But Witnesses believe they must intervene. So they disfellowship. Exclusion from a group is hurtful, and disfellowshipping is supposed to hurt. The goal is to make the 'bad boy' repent. In most cases it doesn't work, and the expelled person is resentful.

When we're resentful we tend to be irrational. So, let's say our 'bad boy' had multiple partners. That's not the Witness way. He likes having indiscriminate sexual encounters. Does he really want to be a Witness? Well, he doesn't want to behave as one, but he may like that feeling of belonging and he may want to stay within the fellowship. Exclusion brings with it the feeling that he is less than he was. In fact, nothing has changed. He is worth exactly as much before as after. But the feeling of rejection is still present. There is often a transference of blame. "Sure, I kissed ten girls today, six of them underage, and probably I shouldn't have, BUT they said I'm worthless and threw me out and my own mommy won't talk to me!"

Okay, I know that's extreme, or I hope it is. But humans tend to transfer blame for faults.

There is also the feeling that one has been misled. The Watchtower suggests that life within its fellowship is a near paradise. It isn't. People are what people are. Every fault individuals had before they were Witnesses, or the underlying causes, remains. One may have given up smoking, for instance, and never cured the underlying addictive behavior. So expectations raised by Watchtower doctrine cannot be met within their fellowship. There is nothing so bitter as believing you were lied to.

Watchtower authority structure is such that adherents expect ideal behavior from those filling authoritarian office - elders and such. At conventions, instead of thanking God for the 'spiritual feast' the chairman thanks the Governing Body and everyone applauds. They set their members up for disappointment. Adverse reaction to this often comes slowly. Old Goat who used to post here lives across the Columbia River from me. I know him well. He was a Company Servant back in the Day, then Congregation Servant, then Elder, Convention speaker, appeal committee choice. But over the years he associated numbers of incidents accumulated that could not finally be resolved. He simply walked away though nominally 'in.' When saturation occurs, there is a reaction. Again, one may want to say and think the worst of the person or organization they see as cause.

But we shouldn't say what is false. Ethically and morally we should not attribute motive where the facts do not sustain it.