quote the original.
Posts by vienne
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101Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
you mean you don't like it. It's very plain. You wish it otherwise. An effective rebuttal of the WTS is accurate and uses terms as they are intended to be used. Wild claims defeat your cause. I'm not certain you know what "obtuse" means.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
Saying that their organization is spirit directed does not imply that it has any role in redemption. How does that differ from the Apostles telling adherents to chose for themselves spirit filled men? That's in Acts. What you object to here is that Witnesses believe they are the one true Christian faith and that if you aren't one of them, then you aren't really a Christian. I am sympathetic to that view and share the objection with you. However, this does not make the claim that anyone but Jesus and anything but his sacrifice is the basis for salvation.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
saying that its vital to stay with the congregation is new testament doctrine. JWs believe they are that congregation. However, that is not the same as saying that salvation comes through the church or its hierarchy.
I don't believe that JWs are the church of god in any sense beyond what any christian body is. But there are exclusivist churches out there that believe similarly. Plymouth Brethren would be one. Saying to stay with the church comes right out of Paul's mouth. It does not imply that the church provides the atonement or salvation.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
exact quotation please.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
Then make it. It's not Witness doctrine.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
This is what the Bible says about Jesus as mediator: “Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance” -- Heb. 9:15.
This is not the work of reconciliation. This is an organizational covenant, just as the old [Mosaic] covenant was organizational. The question is, then, are the Great Crowd under the new covenant, or is there a separate "Israel of God," limited in number? If we answer as Jehovah's Witnesses do, that only a limited number are in the New Covenant, then all else is not. Jesus did not negotiate a covenant with them. If we answer as some others do, that every Christian is part of the new covenant, then the Great Crowd has Jesus as its mediator.
However we answer, an organizing covenant is not the work of reconciliation. That's Jesus' role as atonement sacrifice, and in that role, John the Apostle calls him the propitiatory sacrifice for all. The two terms are distinct both in English and in Greek. Purposely confusing them, as some are doing here, persuades only the choir.
Being exact and accurate in our criticism matters.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
A mediator is a go between who stands between God and another party. He negotiates a covenant. A propitiator is a reconciler, a peace maker. As I said before, in witness theology they keep those concepts separate because they believe only a small number are in the New Covenant, but all are reconciled to God through Christ.
Some of you are confusing the two terms to cause outrage. The real issue is this: are there two classes of Christians, one destined to heaven and the other to a paradise earth. That question has been debated for several centuries, but within traceable Witness history it has been an issue since the mid 19th Century.
Witnesses do NOT teach that 'the earthly class' is without a savior, salvation or reconciliation. They do NOT teach that salvation comes through the anointed or a governing body. We may reject Witness theology, but we should be honest about it. A false outrage is wrong.
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101
Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?
by atomant inlm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..
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vienne
In Witness theology, Jesus as mediator is only mediator of the new covenant between God and the heaven-bound congregation. Jesus as 'propitiator' [reconciler] brings relief from sin and reconciliation to all men. [1 John 2:2] The GB are not seen as filling these functions. There is a confusion of terms in some previous posts.
JWs see the governing body as the appointed administrators of the entire body of believers. A knowledgeable Witness [My experience suggests they're a rare species] will cite Ephesians 4:11-14 to show what a believer's relationship to Witness authority structure and its purpose is. The GB seems to believe that the congregations and individual adherents should be unquestioningly subservient to their opinions.
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Rough Draft Chapter from our Next Book
by vienne ina few of you follow our research into watch tower history.
i've posted a rough draft of a chapter from upcoming volume 2 of separate identity.
on-point comments are welcome.
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vienne
After discussing this with someone who knew Hudson, I now know that he arrived at both dates via hearsay. This is not solid research. I will explain the alternate date in a footnote. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Also thanks to Gorb and Smid for their nice comments.
A bit of rough draft of my Introductory Essay is up now ... That's a work in progress. In it I try to redirect writers to the actual elements of Anglo-American religious history that are the antecedents of Russell era Watch Tower belief. Too many of those with academic pretensions ignore what history should tell them.