vienne

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Posts by vienne

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  24

  Jehovah's Witnesses are a breakaway

  by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let me follow the trial.

  in 1931 rutherford started jehovah's witnesses.

  be before that.. bible student and they merged before 1917 with russelites and they merge with adventists, and then miller in 1844.before that be disperse into baptist and other denominations.

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  vienne

  I'd prefer to think of them as men of faith, though misguided. But certainly some were devious, lying bastards. Change that 'some' to many.
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  24

  Jehovah's Witnesses are a breakaway

  by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let me follow the trial.

  in 1931 rutherford started jehovah's witnesses.

  be before that.. bible student and they merged before 1917 with russelites and they merge with adventists, and then miller in 1844.before that be disperse into baptist and other denominations.

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  vienne

  By the time Russell met him, Barbour had left Adventism for Mark Allen's Church of the Blessed Hope, an Age to Come body. Barbour says his Church of the Strangers was affiliated with Allen's Church. Russell says as much too without naming Allen's movement. Russell wrote:

  The Answer ... explained how Mr. Barbour and Mr. J. H. Paton, of Michigan, a co-worker with him, had been [Italics are mine.] regular Second Adventists ... and that when the date 1874 had passed without the world being burned, and without their seeing Christ in the flesh, they were for a time dumbfounded. They had examined the time-prophecies that had seemingly passed unfulfilled, and had been unable to find any flaw, and had begun to wonder whether the time was right and their expectations wrong, – whether the views of restitution and blessing to the world, which others were teaching, might not be the things to look for.

  Notice that they HAD BEEN Adventists. They were such no longer when Russell met them, but had shifted to the teachings of "others." Restitution doctrine is Age to Come doctrine.

  George Storrs left the Millerite movement [Adventism] in 1844 among much controversy and recrimination. When Russell met him (1874) he was teaching, not Adventist world burning, but Restitution doctrine. He wrote in Bible Examiner that he did not and had not for some time read any Adventist publication. He did, however, write for Age to Come journals including the Restitution. Adventists sniped at him, defamed him, and printed lies. He addressed this in issues of Bible Examiner.

  B. W. Schulz, a Fellow of a scholarly group focused on Witnesses, that includes the most prominent writers of today, and my mother, Rachael de Vienne, are, I would say "the most senior" writers on Witness history. Their work is cited by the most recent authors. These include George Chryssides in Jehovah's Witnesses: Continuity and Change and Zoe Knox Jehovah's Witnesses and the Secular World. Penton's third edition also cites their work and calls them "first rate historians." Mom and Dr. Schulz's books are narrative changing, and their conclusions are backed up with citations and quotations from original sources. Bruce contributed fact checking and editorial comments to Chryssides forth-coming book, due out in September, and he is acknowledged in the preface.

  That someone who wrote some years past does not include current research proves nothing but that he was unaware of developing research. That you can't find references to Age to Come only means you looked in the wrong places. Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22age+to+come%22&tbm=bks&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVx9KmrNPvAhXbLc0KHVRXCtkQpwUIJQ&biw=1366&bih=625&dpr=1

  The Age to come movement, sometimes called Literalist, was diverse with many sub doctrines that conflicted with others within their movement. Russell was most influenced by those associated with The Restitution. By the time Russell met him, Stetson was teaching age to come and had been since 1865. He says so in a Restitution article. While some of his former Adventist associates still admired him, Stetson was dropped from the Advent Christian speakers list because of his change in doctrine. His articles were no longer accepted. And he was writing for The Restitution and for the British journal The Rainbow.
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  24

  Jehovah's Witnesses are a breakaway

  by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let me follow the trial.

  in 1931 rutherford started jehovah's witnesses.

  be before that.. bible student and they merged before 1917 with russelites and they merge with adventists, and then miller in 1844.before that be disperse into baptist and other denominations.

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  vienne

  Russell was never an Adventist. He was an Age to Come Millennialist. His doctrines came from that source. Separate Identity, both volumes, considers this in detail. At one point Russell tells his readers that while he knew Miller's failed chronology, he never read anything Miller wrote.

  On the other hand, he tells his readers that he read The Restitution, an Age to Come newspaper. He mentions various books that he read, including J. A. Seiss' Last Times. Seiss was a then prominent Lutheran, whose books are still reprinted. He quotes various periodicals, none of them Adventist or Millerite.

  Surprisingly, most of his earliest followers were Methodists. Not Adventists of any sort.
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  3

  Is old Watchtower literature being preserved by any particular entity?

  by Etude in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i read a recent post from mickbobcat about how expensive some of the old watchtower literature for sale is.

  is there a group or entity that is working to digitize or somehow preserve the old literature, giving others the ability to research them?.

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  vienne

  Other than the Watch Tower Society {seldom cooperative} there are Watchtower collections in New York Public Library, The Library of Congress, some college libraries such as UC Santa Barbara. Access is directly to the Library of Congress or through https://www.worldcat.org/ or your local library's Interlibrary Loan system.
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  16

  Would it be right to post Memorial Zoom codes?

  by ExCircuitOverseer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have come into possession of memorial zoom meeting codes for tonight that cannot be traced back to me.

  i will not be attending.

  what are your thoughts on posting these codes so activists can join tonight and maybe say something?

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  vienne

  I is unethical to disrupt a religious meeting, even one we think harmful or just wrong headed.
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  5

  Controversy Early Day's Watchtower

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  some of you may be interested in this: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-watch-tower-and-koreshan-unity.html.

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  vienne

  It's not my work. It's that of one of the blog editors. But it is fascinating.
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  5

  Controversy Early Day's Watchtower

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  some of you may be interested in this: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-watch-tower-and-koreshan-unity.html.

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  vienne

  I have no idea how I ended up with duplicate posts. Maybe remove one of them?
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  Early Days Watchtower Controversy

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  some of you may be interested in this article: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

• 

  vienne

  Some of you may be interested in this article: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
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  5

  Controversy Early Day's Watchtower

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  some of you may be interested in this: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-watch-tower-and-koreshan-unity.html.

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  vienne

  Some of you may be interested in this: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-watch-tower-and-koreshan-unity.html
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  66

  Watchtower fined in Belgium

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  jehovah's witnesses in belgium have to pay €12k fine for shunning policy.

  news.

  you have probably heard of the trial going on in belgium about the shunning policy of jws.

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  vienne

  Cite the page in the Watchtower or a letter from them that says they 'ditched' him for anything.

  Who cares what the Watchtower says about 'dedication.' That has no effect on the facts. One can leave anytime. You may not like the consequences of leaving, but that is the fact.

  You continue to post non sequetars as proof of something. Non sequetars prove nothing; they only give the appearance of argument without logical argument.

  You continue to use ad hominem toward Introvigne (naïve at best and the cynical ploy) without refuting him. Typical of some on this board. I am not surprised.