Posts by vienne

23

When will the Watchtower Society be desolated?

by Hiddenservant in

did you know that the answer is provided in the scriptures through the 70 weeks prophecy?.

daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy explained.. the 70 weeks were split into three parts.

here is the reason why.. the prophecy is not only about the messiah, it is also about god’s people and the holy city, as verse 24 makes clear.

vienne

Another prophet with mental health issues.

5

i'm still digesting these changes and i think i'll reserve judgement for some months until we see how it all plays out in reality.. however, if the disfellowshipping process really has been de-fanged and shunning is beginning it's retreat into the society's past then what excuses will there be in the years to come for anyone who wants to leave?.

i can almost understand why they've done this.

more carrot, less stick.

vienne

Most of you will remember that I'm not a Witness and never have been. I've attended many meetings and conventions usually with my mom (I miss her terribly) while she was adding to her research notes. I have relatives who are Witnesses, including some who are elders.

Okay, got that? right. So of those, only one was ever disfellowshipped. He was an abusive drunk who went through two wives, tried to beat one of his sons and ran a fraud through his company. He turned to drug use. Eventually he was fired, blew through about four million dollars and put a bullet in his brain. I understand shunning someone like this. Or someone like Lloyd-Boy. Sunning is scriptural whether we wish it weren't or not. As practiced by Witnesses it has elements that do not seem scriptural to me. The latest change remedies most of those.

Attending meetings has left me with the impression that there is a noticeable lack of love and some have seemed positively unwelcoming. Last memorial I attended with my oldest sisters, both Witnesses. I found a seat and remained in it. None of the elders greeted me, even though I was an obvious stranger. In fact no one spoke to me but one elderly 'sister' who knew my mother and read her books. This is not as it should be.

I should amend the last paragraph. One 'brother' who used to be an elder spoke to me at length after the meeting. When he was an elder he tried to interfere with my mother's teaching, contacting the principal to have a book banned from mom's class. He's a creep, elder or not. The principal reminded him the class was an elective and he simply did not have to enroll his son in it. He makes my skin crawl, but he at least spoke to me.

I read as many of the Watchtower's internal documents as I can. As I see it their education system is poor. [My qualifications to express this opinion? Come June I'll have my MA with a double major; education and history.]

The problem with Witness education is that meant for elders is procedural and not scriptural. Where is the intensive chapter by chapter consideration of the Bible? They rely on the curiosity of appointed men, not on an education system that requires them to focus on scripture. The Governing Body and their assistants are allowed intensive Bible study. Mary Witness is not. She is confined to Watchtower publications. That's fine. They contain their doctrines and understandings. But that's nothing like an intensive study. I asked one of their long-serving elders a question about something in the Book of Hebrews. His answer, "I don't remember ever reading that scripture."

How can Watchtower clergy counsel, act in scriptural ways, teach, without having been thoroughly taught themselves? Because their education system fails in this way, one sees elders adapting Governing Body guidance to fit their own, often faulty, understanding of Scripture. Why is this?

The new guidance is a step toward scriptural responsibility. Its a good one. Not quite far enough, but good.

There are many things I like about Watchtower theology. Some I do not like. The Faithful Slave concept twists those verses to give stature to the Governing Body. Of course others also twist scripture: Trinitarians, Hell-fire believers, Catholics whose church is a remake of ancient religions layered over with Christian terms. Any who rely of patristics instead of the Bible alone.

I watch a few of the anti-Witness videos and come away with the same feeling. They turn insignificant elders' letters into a mountain. They're smarmy. And some who try to refute the NWT ignore current scholarship to do so. So both sides are 'black' here. A clergyman's videos I sometimes watch are continuing exposures of other clergy's behaviors. But his own beliefs seem extra-Biblical.

In the face of this, I can tolerate some Watchtower practices.

On this discussion board I find those who practice ad hominem: "Wash towel" "Jehoober". Please! You hate the Watchtower. Fine. You show yourself as incapable of anything but school-yard insult. No one needs a reason to leave the Witness organization. A simple, "I don't like this and do not want to follow this path" is enough.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm not done by any means. But this is enough.

Annie [AKA Anastasia Marie] and NOT "Hey Dude"

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

vienne

Since solid historical research shows that early disciples did not believe in a fiery hell, the original premise is wrong. Yet this is left without a comment?

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/953.5255#5255

16

Elder abuser in Sunshine Coast down under (?)

by carla in

not sure if this has been posted or not, apologies if it has.

i did a quick search and did not see it.

https://archive.md/5zcdi -a sunshine coast jehovah’s witness figure accused of horrific sex crimes has been remanded in jail for fresh offences which allegedly occurred the same day he attended court.. and https://archive.md/r2o6x -a sunshine coast jehovah’s witness figure who allegedly used his position in the church to sexually assault young men has been arrested by police.

vienne

He was an elder? The article I read said he was only a member of the congregation. Reprehensible no matter what.

34

Forget 1914, the 1975 generation are now passing away!

by nowwhat? in

we still have quite a few elderly here that came in as young families in the late 1960's-early 70's because soon, yes very soon they would enter the new system and never grow old.

it's now one year away from 50 years since 1975. just in the last couple years i've seen them come down with alzheimer's, cancer, brain tumors, becoming invalid etc.

the children of them that are now around 60 are just so distraught at seeing their parents deteriorate.

vienne

To me the 1975 fiasco illustrates dichotomy between the standards prominent Witnesses are held and those to which the rank and file are held. If an elder or anyone for that matter had made the 1975 predictions, they'd have been counselled or disfellowshipped. Franz was given a pass because he was St. Fredrick.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

vienne

The original premise is questionable. Did the Apostle's students believe in Hell-Fire?

Consider:

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/953.5255#5255

8

Albert Delmont Jones

by vienne in

jones was a principal investor in the knickerbocker bank of new york city.

there was an earlier and defunct bank of the same name.

the bank issued its own currency, a common practice at the time.

vienne

Excellent! Can we find one with the signatures?

8

Albert Delmont Jones

by vienne in

jones was a principal investor in the knickerbocker bank of new york city.

there was an earlier and defunct bank of the same name.

the bank issued its own currency, a common practice at the time.

vienne

drop,

nope. what Russell said was the product of W. Wisdom, published in 1917. Gems is a modern Bible Student work.

Jones financed J. Paton's 1881 book, first ed. only.

8

Albert Delmont Jones

by vienne in

jones was a principal investor in the knickerbocker bank of new york city.

there was an earlier and defunct bank of the same name.

the bank issued its own currency, a common practice at the time.

vienne

A. D. Jones was one of the Watch Tower's first contributors. He started is own magazine, and eventually left Watch Tower fellowship. He came into unexpected wealth, took a mistress, found himself in legal trouble, ran off, and led an adventurous life, eventually dying in a hospital. His grave is under a freeway ramp.

30

Internal Watchtower Statistics Re: Disfellowshipping and Shunning

by NotFormer in

does the wt have a person/department/section tasked with compiling data and analysing it statistically.

or have they started doing something like that now that they are hiring external consultancies?.

i ask the question because i'm wondering if such studies and statistical analysis would show any link between the harshness of the disfellowshipping policy as it is applied and the dropout rate of people within the organisation who have just had enough.. in previous threads it has been pointed out that the old approach isn't effective any more.

vienne

Apparently you have the vaguest idea of logic. Do you know what a premise is? Apparently not in any functional way. A premise is the impelling part of an argument. It is the underpinning of any claim you make. It presupposes that it is 'fact.' A false premise is one that has no basis in fact. Your statement is a false premise, and everything you build on it is fakery.

You wish it was true. You want it to be true. But it is not. If you cannot support your premise, then all that follows (your argument) fails.

I'm educating a simpleton. Alas.