Let's see scans of the letters to which you refer.
Posts by vienne
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19Reaction of Governing Body Belies More than their Accusation
by carefullyread ina disfellowshiped brother wrote a letter of disquisition to the governing body of wbts a little while ago.
it was not in any way nasty, derogatory, rude, blasphemous, or with profanity but it was civil, truthful, & very informative that some have described as extremely truthful to enlightening, an ebullient disclosure.
i got to see some paraphrases extracted from it that have been circulating quietly or rather secretly passed around & i agree with the latter description.. the governing body was greatly perturbed, alarmed, to confused with this letter particularly as they became aware several of the congregation were also sent copies which some of the local congregational elders raised controversial questions about but mainly was dismissed by them without reading, to scoffing & ridicule but some also saw something more truthful to concern them.
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vienne
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Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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vienne
No, you misstate what I said. I'm saying that no matter what Masons thought about the Pyramid, Russell did not come to his belief from that source. The pyramid is not a Masonic symbol today. It was in the fairly distant past. But none of Russell's beliefs about the Great Pyramid come from or are parallel to Masonic teaching.
Russell names the authors he read. He names many of the publications and periodicals he read. That trail leads us to Smyth, Ford, Seiss, The Restitution and similar sources. Seiss and others saw it as the stone witness of Isaiah's prophecy. So did Russell. They did not see a Masonic connection but a divine one.
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Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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vienne
Pyramidology was a religious fad. Russell was caught up in it, introduced to it by his association with the One Faith movement, the antecedent to what is today the Church of God General Conference [Atlanta]. He read the works of Thomas Wilson, nephew to Benjamin Wilson, the Diaglott translator.
Thomas Wilson wrote in Our Rest: “I have been for some time prayerfully engaged in the study of that greatest wonder of earth (The Great Pyramid), ‘the witness,’ and the Lord has at last blessed my investigations by revealing to me what I sought after, viz., a perfect chronology, reaching back to the beginning of the world. I have felt impressed for some time with the idea that this building of His, so perfect in all other respects, would not fall short here, and so it has proven. The testimony is gradually being given, and in every instance it witnesses for the truth of that good old book, the Holy Bible.” – Quoted in B. W. Savile: Anglo-Israelitism & the Great Pyramid, London, 1880, page 102. Wilson wrote a series of articles on the Great Pyramid in the 1880s. Two of the most significant are found in the January and November issues of Our Rest. These were picked up and commented on by The International Standard: A Magazine Devoted to … The Great Pyramid. See the May 1884 issue, pages 117, 124.
We write in Separate Identity:
The Witness of the Great Pyramid
They were introduced to speculations about the Great Pyramid of Giza at least by 1875.[1] How soon they adopted the view that the pyramid was God’s “great stone witness on the border of Egypt” is unknown, but it must have been in this era. As with so much else, claims made about Russell’s belief that the Great Pyramid was a secondary witness to the divine message are often wholly or partly false. One writer suggests that Storrs introduced Pyramidology to “the Millerites,” and that belief centered in Adventist bodies. Those who lack persistence and skill as researchers, the lazy and polemicists may have an interest in limiting belief to “fringe” groups, but this distorts the record. Pyramidology was discussed in America at least by 1861.[2] Believers were a diverse group that ran the spectrum from Astrologers to Thomas De Witt Talmage, a popular Presbyterian and Reformed pastor, who had “no doubt” that Isaiah’s reference to a stone witnesses on the border of Egypt meant the Great Pyramid.[3]
Charles Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal for Scotland, popularized and elaborated the theories of John Taylor, who without visiting the pyramid suggested that it was constructed by Noah. Smyth traveled to Egypt, examining and measuring the pyramid. He penned Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid which was published in 1864. It attributed the Great Pyramid to Melchizedek and gave it a scientific and religious import. Smyth’s theories gained a following among Egyptologists, not the least of whom was William Matthew Flinders Petrie. But when Flinders Petrie traveled to Egypt in 1880, making his own measurements he found so many flaws in Smyth’s theory that he abandoned it, calling it “lamentable nonsense.” By the end of the 19th Century no reputable Egyptologist supported it.
James K. Walker, president of the Watchman Fellowship, suggested that Pyramidology was “a major source of revelation” for Russell, writing that Russell admitted to this. As is true of most of what Mr. Walker writes, this is absurd. At least one writer claims that Pyramidology attracted Adventists primarily, and many claim that pyramid belief was rank superstition, occultism, or connected to the Masons. All of this is wrong, some of it out of context and some contrived. Certainly, Walker’s claim that Russell was dependent on pyramid measurement for his chronology is false. Ron Rhodes described Russell’s belief that the pyramid fulfilled Isaiah’s prophecy as “cornerstone component” of his belief system. This is also false.
In 1881, Russell wrote that he had “great respect” for the teaching of the Great Pyramid, adding, “We do not build our faith upon it. It has well been called ‘A Miracle in Stone,’ and it commends itself to us as a work of God, and not planned by men, for it seems in every respect to be in perfect accord with God’s plan as we are finding it written in His Word; and this it is, that causes our respect for it.”[4] It is no more true that Russell found in the pyramid a cornerstone of his theology than it is of Clarence Larkin, the Baptist expositor, who also saw the pyramid as God’s stone witness on the border of Egypt.
Russell was introduced to Pyramidology through his One Faith and Millennialist connections. Storrs, writers for Age-to-Come journals, and others promoted Smyth’s ideas and added thoughts of their own. Thomas Wilson’s Our Rest focused on the dual themes of Christ’s return and the Great Pyramid. Russell could not have avoided the discussion. The quotation above shows us that he read J. A. Seiss’ Miracle in Stone when it was published in 1877. Seiss published on the theme in 1869, but while Russell may have read that tract we cannot prove he did. The nature of the Great Pyramid was the subject of lectures, pamphlets, books and public discussion. If it later became the pet theory of fringe religion and occultists, it was not that in this era. We honor Isaac Newton for his science. We forget that when everyone else believed Phlogiston was a scientific reality, he did too. If he were alive today, we’d raise our eyebrows and scoff. Context is everything here. Put in context, Russell’s adoption of Smyth’s theory made him a man of his times. He believed it when others did.
Seiss, whose works are still published, is honored as a serious and scholarly exegete. Others of repute in the religious world found the theory attractive. A long list of favorable reviews of his Miracle in Stone appeared in the religious and secular press. The Illustrated Christian Weekly expressed some reservations but recommended it. The Reformed Church Messenger approached it in the same way. So did The Christian Intelligencer. Messiah’s Herald wrote, “We’re glad that it is being studied by men of learning and piety; and those who have a taste for study in that direction, will find many things in this volume to help them.” We do not know how Russell was introduced to Seiss’ book. He probably heard of it from various sources. The Pittsburgh Dispatch reviewed it, saying: “The lectures of Dr. Seiss are as remarkable for the polished beauty of their construction, as for the information which they contain. That mysterious pillar, the Great Pyramid of Gizeh, its relation to ancient history, modern discoveries, and Bible connections, are thoroughly canvassed in this volume.” If we are to fault Russell at all, it is for believing the theory long after its defects were apparent.
[1] The Great Pyramid, Bible Examiner, 1875, page 233 ff.
[2] 1861 New York Tribune Almanac, page 3.
[3] T. De Witt Talmage: Lesson of the Pyramid, The Peekskill, New York, Highland Democrat, October 24, 1891.
[4] C. T. Russell: The Year 1881, Zion’s Watch Tower, May 1881, page 5.
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Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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vienne
Finkelstein, that would be my writing partner, B. W. Schulz. https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5116004591992832/who-b-w-schulz-anyone-know
Phizzy, give us examples. Cite the issue and page of the Watch Tower where he does that.
Egyptian symbols were in common use when the winged disk appeared on Studies in the Scriptures. It was a fad called the Egyptian Revival. See TD's comment above.
Name the exact doctrine Russell borrowed from Masons. Which of his many doctrines did he borrow? Cite a Masonic work that promotes a Russellite doctrine. give us the page.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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vienne
Sparrow,
We devote an entire chapter [chapter 4] in Separate Identity to tracing the origins of his theology. And you are right, the early Bible Study group [1871-1876] were heavily influenced by others, especially Literalist/Age-to-Come believers as represented by the religious newspaper The Restitution.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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vienne
Pyramidology did not come from Masonic belief but from two British writers. The one most influential on Russell was Charles Piazzi Smyth. Russell circulated for a brief while a pyramidology book by J. A. Seiss, an American Lutheran pastor. There is nothing in Russell's theology that parallels Masonic belief or practice.
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67
Russell's aleged freemasonry on JWfacts.com
by NikL inpaul has written an interesting piece on jwfacts.com .
https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/russell-not-a-freemason.php.
anyway, it jogged my memory and reminded me of something i thought i would pass on to you.back in the late 80s i had the opportunity to chat with ray franz on the phone and i asked him about this very thing.he didn't say yes or no to russel's masonic connection but what he said was something like, "he is buried in the masonic section of the cemetery so draw your own conclusion.
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vienne
Franz, if he said that, was inaccurate. Russell was demonstrably not a Mason and he is not buried in a masonic cemetery.
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Anyone have a scan of this ...
by vienne inabout 1910 the brethren writer william d. forsyth self published a booklet entitled israel's greater faith contrasted with zion's watch tower.
i need a copy to further current research.
anyone?
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vienne
Only copy we could find is in British Library. The cost of a photocopy or scan sent to USA is prohibitive.
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Anyone have a scan of this ...
by vienne inabout 1910 the brethren writer william d. forsyth self published a booklet entitled israel's greater faith contrasted with zion's watch tower.
i need a copy to further current research.
anyone?
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vienne
About 1910 the Brethren writer William D. Forsyth self published a booklet entitled Israel's Greater Faith Contrasted with Zion's Watch Tower. I need a copy to further current research. Anyone?
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19
Reaction of Governing Body Belies More than their Accusation
by carefullyread ina disfellowshiped brother wrote a letter of disquisition to the governing body of wbts a little while ago.
it was not in any way nasty, derogatory, rude, blasphemous, or with profanity but it was civil, truthful, & very informative that some have described as extremely truthful to enlightening, an ebullient disclosure.
i got to see some paraphrases extracted from it that have been circulating quietly or rather secretly passed around & i agree with the latter description.. the governing body was greatly perturbed, alarmed, to confused with this letter particularly as they became aware several of the congregation were also sent copies which some of the local congregational elders raised controversial questions about but mainly was dismissed by them without reading, to scoffing & ridicule but some also saw something more truthful to concern them.
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vienne
The initial post, aside from its very poor grammar, is not credible without the letter. The writer is either from West Africa where this convoluted style of writing is standard, or he is not a native English speaker. He picks ostentatious words where simple language will do. This is characteristic of W. African media.
In the past few years I've interviewed a number of more or less prominent Bethelites including one who handles correspondence. They seldom answer letters of the sort reported here. They ignore them. I would like to know what made a letter such as this upset them? I suspect this is contrived.
The governing body are 'true believers.' They seldom see letters addressed to them. They're filtered out by staff. Individual dissenters [much nicer word than apostate, no?] do not concern them. The collective does because dissenting voices on the Internet have a reach that the Xeroxed and mimeographed letters of the 1940-1980s never had.