Posts by vienne

10

What is Ibid?

by Belladonna75 in

hi all, i'm diving deep into historical jw literature research and i keep seeing ibid as a frequently cited source - what is this?

i've tried the old google, but no luck.

does this stand for something (i'm probably missing something incredibly obvious) or have i spent too many hours reading 1930s the golden age magazines and depleted all my electrons already?

vienne

May I suggest https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ as a resource for your historical research?

54

trying not to type swearwords as i write this so bare with me.. my little 3yo attends meetings with her jw mum (who doesn't believe watchtower anymore but is stuck in because she relies on her family for help).

my mum (the one who tells people im dead) had a party for her grandchildren.

that's my 4 nieces and 1 nephew aged from 3yo-11yo.

vienne

Probably won't do a lick of good, but I'd write this all up naming names and send it to the Watchtower. It should make them blush for fostering this behavior.

My mother was baptized when I was 12, and I attended meetings with her. It was elder behavior that made me question everything I heard at Watchtower meetings. Within a year I had serious questions about doctrine, structure and behavior on the part of Witnesses.

I unloaded on John Barr when he visited our congregation. He listened. There was a result, but by that time I was certain that some doctrine was irretrievably broken, that the authority structure was not scriptural and the people as a whole did not know what love is.

22

Which Bible Translation

by moreconfusedthanever in

i have seen a few comments about the nwt being an altered version of the bible and i must admit that when they released the new one it did not sit right with me.. i want to read the bible but not the nwt.

i also do not want to read one that has the thee and thou and ye etc because that will do my head in.. what translations do you recommend?.

vienne

NIV is as distorted as the NW. Try The Bible from 26 Translations. It draws from some of the most common and most useful translations. And for all its cost, saves money on buying many translations.

15

Who Is The Most Unlike-Able Member Of The Governing Body?

by pale.emperor in

vote here: https://goo.gl/hynuaz.

results will be here: https://goo.gl/xsxm2j.

vienne

When I was young a relative introduced me to several of the governing body. I would have gone anywhere with John Barr and his wife. They were lovely, caring people. I don't know any of the current batch, and, while I have an opinion about the public speaking skills of one of them, I have no opinion about them.

But my life isn't affected by any of them. I'm not a Witness, never was one. My experience with local elders is largely negative. So I can see why some here would see governing body members in a negative light.

30

Had twin babies with a married JW?!?!?!?!?!?! advice & thoughts

by Gokumonkey in

before i begin i just wanna say, im not proud of what i did, it was wrong but it happened now im just trying to do the right thing.. ok so im a "worldly" person and i meet a jw women at my job.

i had no idea she was married due to the fact that she hid her wedding ring.

i even ask if she was in a relationship and she denied it.

vienne

Am I allowed to be skeptical? Whether or not I'm allowed, this smells bad.

6

Seeking Recommendations for Key Leaflets/Books for a Paper

by Ja.Wein in

hello friends,.

i am writing a paper on the teachings of the jws with a friend where we are going to debunk their bible translations and other false teachings/predictions the church has taught over the years.. i have never been a jw so this has put me in a bit of a pinch so i thought i would turn here to ask you guys for some help.. what are some of the key books/leaflets that debunk, or outline, the many false teachings/predictions of the jws?.

i asked jwfacts and he told me to ask here so i thought i would.. anyway, thanks..

vienne

From my point of view, the one true essential flaw of all editions of the New World Translation is bad English grammar. I spent a huge amount of time comparing it to the New English Bible New Testament. The NWT was often technically better, but set against the better grammar of the NEB, it comes across as pale and amateurish. In nearly every case the NWT was more faithful to the Greek text, but its translators handled English as if it were not the translators' native language. They tried to do what Kenneth Wuest did, but with less success with the end product.

Most other issues raised against the NWT fall to valid alternative translation. [Notice I said most, not all. But here we're into debatable opinion.

Another observation. In your initial post you stated your intent to 'debunk' false teachings. Every writer brings their own beliefs to their project. But, writing with someone with beliefs contrary to my own, has taught me that it is far better to 'report' than criticize. Back in 1945 H. H. Hewitt, a sociologist, published his book The Jehovah's Witnesses. He misreported quotations, chose his material without regard to the full facts, and his personal doctrine crept into his text. His book is a failure because he turned from Sociologist to religious controversialist. As a result he manipulated 'facts.'

Witnesses aren't all dull minded. There is true genius among them, and if you present a distorted, inaccurate story, they will know it and they will savage it.

6

Seeking Recommendations for Key Leaflets/Books for a Paper

by Ja.Wein in

hello friends,.

i am writing a paper on the teachings of the jws with a friend where we are going to debunk their bible translations and other false teachings/predictions the church has taught over the years.. i have never been a jw so this has put me in a bit of a pinch so i thought i would turn here to ask you guys for some help.. what are some of the key books/leaflets that debunk, or outline, the many false teachings/predictions of the jws?.

i asked jwfacts and he told me to ask here so i thought i would.. anyway, thanks..

vienne

Without seeing your outline, I'm reluctant to recommend specific literature. Almost all WatchTower publications are digitized and on a CD. Download and read. Use key word searched. The WT library is downloadable. The first years of the WT is sold on various disk sets. The WT from 1879 to 1916 is online. Other years are sold on disk. Do a search to find whoever is selling them currently.

I"m not writing this kind of book, but I think the key predictions made by the Watch Tower are for the years 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, implied events for the 1940s, 1975. That means you must search relevant issues of Watchtower magazines and publications for those years. Start with a basic google or yandex search. Just don't accept as valid everything you find.

For events between 1914 and 1925 you will want access to The National Labor Tribune and The St. Paul Enterprise. Both newspapers ran Bible Student news, often written by Bible Students. PSL Johnson wrote a huge series of books. He still has his followers, but, at the risk of offending his followers who come here, he is a fruit cake. But ... he lived through WT history from 1903 onward. Suspect everything he writes, but don't ignore it either.

You will need to read Millions Now Living Will Never Die. The Finished Mystery [1917 edition] will be an essential read. The Consolation [now Awake!] from 1937 to 1946. I don't know if all the Golden Age is available to you. But relevant material is found within it.

You may want to explore the 'return of the princes' doctrine and its evolution. There is a very rare Franz recording, but probably you'll do better reading the text material within the Watchtower.

Critiquing the NWT will require you to read it side by side with other translations. I recommend any of the online bible sites, The Bible from 26 Translations, the Kingdom Interlinear Translation. Just read the NWT until a question arises, then research the verses in question.

I write narrowly focused, detailed history. Your project appears to be a generalist approach. Craft your outline; make a list of questions; pursue them. You're trying to skip a research step. I used to advise my PhD students to read widely in the appropriate literature and then narrow their focus. Much of successful research is based on educated guesswork and serendipity. You find what you find because you actively look. That means time in tedious reading, cogitation, and careful notes.

I can't make detailed suggestions, because I'm not privy to your outline or approach.

6

Seeking Recommendations for Key Leaflets/Books for a Paper

by Ja.Wein in

hello friends,.

i am writing a paper on the teachings of the jws with a friend where we are going to debunk their bible translations and other false teachings/predictions the church has taught over the years.. i have never been a jw so this has put me in a bit of a pinch so i thought i would turn here to ask you guys for some help.. what are some of the key books/leaflets that debunk, or outline, the many false teachings/predictions of the jws?.

i asked jwfacts and he told me to ask here so i thought i would.. anyway, thanks..

vienne

Key documentation is always original source material. In this case that's Watchtower publications. I write and until recently taught history. Most of what you find online is inadequate or wrong. Distrust everything until you can verify it.

On what basis do you hope to debunk the NWT. I had two years of NT Greek and would find the task of 'debunking' the NWT daunting. You can repeat what others have said, but be aware that a significant part of what you find online is wrong. Mantley tried to rebut the NWT claiming they misrepresented him. In fact, Mantly did not write what he claimed. He revised Dana's Greek Grammar and had nothing to do with the quotation in question. So beware.

One anti NWT tract claimed that the Witness translation was criticized by an expert who died 100 years before the first volume of the NWT was released. Be cautious. Use truly authoritative sources, not mere polemics.

The same is true when dealing with Witness 'predictions.' Many things are misstated even in sources that seem authoritative. In the next volume of our book, Separate Identity, we consider Watch Tower expectations for 1881. After considering the secondary and tertiary sources we've written this paragraph:

"Russell and his fellow believers’ expectations for the approaching year are almost always misstated. Brown, Bell, and Carson’s Marketing Apocalypse says: “Jehovah’s Witnesses ... have rescheduled the end of the world on nine separate occasions,” and cites the 1881 date. None of the dates they cite were the focus of end of the world predictions. That they claimed such indicates a profound misunderstanding of Watch Tower theology. Neither Watch Tower adherent believers nor descendent groups believe the world will end. They expected other things for 1881. L. L. Dawson and B. C. Whitsel claimed that “Jehovah’s Witnesses predicted Christ’s second coming in ... 1881.” They derived this from a misreading of an article by Zygmunt, failing to read any of the original material. Russell and his associated did not believe Christ would return in 1881. They believed he was already present. There is little excuse for errors of this nature. Others with some pretension to academic credentials have made similar claims. One can safely consign their research to the trash bin of poorly researched history."

My point is that you will find many claims, most of which will prove false. Verify from the original Witness sources.

Back to translation criticism: Go to standard sources, not anti-witness polemics. Among these are Brown, Driver, Brigs, Lang's Commentary; Various Lexicons, M. R. Vincent's word studies, Vines, A. T. Robertson. Also, some fall into the trap of ignoring Witness explanations for controversial translations. Don't do that. Check out what they said.

Others ignore textual context when making their point. This is always a mistake. For instance, when considering John 1:1 controversialist writers tend to focus on the anarthrous theos, arguing over its significance or lack of significance. This is a valid discussion, but it ignores the state of being verbs: ie Jesus was God; Jesus became flesh. These are as important, maybe more important contextually, as the anarthrous theos. If you wish to argue this point to a valid conclusion you must account for the verb forms.

Am I suggesting you give it all up? No. Neither am I defending Witness theology. But I am advising you to be more than the usual amateur controversialist. There are many junk refutations of the Watchtower. Don't write another one. Do your homework. Don't parrot what others say. Verify, verify, verify.

83

Russell's Pyramidology Originated In Edinburgh Scotland

by cofty in

the edinburgh city observatory sits atop calton hill at the east end of the city centre adjacent to burn's monument, scotland's national monument modelled on the parthenon, and nelson's monument with the time ball that falls at 1pm every day except sundays.. .

the second astronomer royal of edinburgh was charles piazzi smyth (jan. 1819 - feb. 1900).

smyth was a man of many and varied interests including meteorology, producing weather observations that still form an important part of uk climate records to this day.. building on the work of james taylor, smyth became fascinated by the great pyramid of egypt at giza.

vienne

This is a footnote from our Separate Identity:

Though Object and Manner was reprinted in its entirety in the Golden Age in 1923, modern Watch Tower
writers lost track of it and did not have the booklet available to them from the 1950s until the mid 1970s. There seems to have been no real effort on the part of Watch Tower research staff to locate a copy. A photocopy was sent to them by an enterprising researcher in the early 1970s, but the 1975 Yearbook history still repeats the 1873 date. (See page 36.) Another researcher, responding to a letter from the Watchtower Society, provided proof of the correct date in 1974. As late as March 1, 1987, The Watchtower repeated the wrong date, even though proof to thecontrary was in their hands. By then they had received copies of the booklet itself, were pointed to the statements in The Time is at Hand and in The Watch Tower of March 1, 1922, where the correct date appears. The correct publication date is given in July 1, 1949, issue of The Watchtower. Part one of the Golden Age reprint is in the November 7, 1923, issue.

83

Russell's Pyramidology Originated In Edinburgh Scotland

by cofty in

the edinburgh city observatory sits atop calton hill at the east end of the city centre adjacent to burn's monument, scotland's national monument modelled on the parthenon, and nelson's monument with the time ball that falls at 1pm every day except sundays.. .

the second astronomer royal of edinburgh was charles piazzi smyth (jan. 1819 - feb. 1900).

smyth was a man of many and varied interests including meteorology, producing weather observations that still form an important part of uk climate records to this day.. building on the work of james taylor, smyth became fascinated by the great pyramid of egypt at giza.

vienne

I should add that when the World's Crisis, the Advent Christian Society's main publication, was founded, believers and subscribers were a mixed lot. Some Millerite Adventists and Some Literalists. There was considerable tensin from the first and within a few years many churches in the fellowship refused preaching by Age to Come believers. By 1872 there was a raging argument over the nature of prophetic 'truth.' The two parties separated in the 1870s, and people we sometimes find described as Adventists were not. George Stetson who preached using an Advent Christian license left them in that division. Storrs left Adventism after the failure of the seventh month movement in 1844 amidst lies and misrepresentation by his former associates.

If there was confusion in the minds of the public, there was no confusion between the parties. One of the most prominent Age to Come evangelists wrote to The Restitution complaining of the controversy as it affected him:

I came out of the M.[ethodist] E.[piscopal] Church into the Advent Christian Church,
but when I began to preach the restoration of Israel and the reign of Christ and his
brethren over the nations, they cast me out; and as I owned the church building they
could not stop me from preaching, they quit coming and would not hear. This was in
Cherokee. At Traer the Advent Christian church voted that Brother G. M. Myers and I
should never preach in their church again. I hope our Advent friends will soon see the
folly of rejecting the restoration spoken of by all his holy prophets