My experience with Witness elders is almost totally negative. One can, of course, raise the issue with the Watchtower. And should. But expect no results.
Posts by vienne
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19Pioneers Living With Married Couple
by msecodo inso ... situation:.
a baptized married couple, with no privileges that we know of, have opened their home to 2 unmarried regular pioneers because of the pioneers' financial issues (limited income).. - husband works from home.
- wife doesn't work and stays home or in service.
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vienne
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177
Charles T Russell -a freemason and the connection to the illuminati...
by dolphman inok, i'm not one for conspiracy theories but lately i've uncovered some interesting facts that i think warrant some attention.. first of all, russell was a freemason.
all the early watchtower and books he authored have freemason symbology and art throughout them.
not a big deal i thought, until i read more about freemasons and the so-called "illuminati", a group of 13 families that supposedly control the world.. supposedly these 13 families, such as the duponts, mcdonalds, kennedys, .
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vienne
Separate Identity, vol 2 is in preparation, but let me share a few paragraphs [in rough draft] from it. This is from appendix 1:
We do not know how familiar Russell was with Henry Grew. Grew died before Russell began seriously exploring religion, but both Storrs and Stetson had Grew’s material in their library. In 1836, the Bank Street Church admitted a Free Mason to membership. Grew’s response was published in tract form as A Narrative of Proceedings in the Bank Street Church, Philadelphia. He soundly opposed secret societies, suggesting that a practicing Mason could not be a faithful Christian.[1]
Russell expressed his opinion in his earliest booklet, Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return:
But will the world not see Christ on His throne when they shall “say to the mountains and rocks fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of his wrath is come.” Will they see nothing? “The day of the Lord so cometh [on the world and foolish virgins] as a thief” – a snare. The class here referred to are represented as recognizing the fact, that “the great day of His wrath has come,” the time of trouble; they now realize it. “He shall be revealed [to them] in flaming fire, [terrible judgments] taking vengeance, etc.” What sort of rocks and mountains do you suppose this will pray to have fall on them – literal mountains? No; few saints have the faith to pray for mountains to fall, while the wicked have not faith to pray for small things; besides what would we think of a man who wanted to die and could think of no more simple method than to be crushed by a mountain. But these do not seek destruction: they want to be covered – protected – in this time of trouble ... men will seek protection – covering – hiding in the great and strong kingdoms of the world. ... They will seek hiding, also, in such great rocks of worldly society as Free Masonry, Odd Fellowship, etc., but none of these (can protect fully) shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s anger.[2]
No matter what one thinks of Russell’s theology as expressed here, it is obvious that he classed secret societies including Masons as false and worldly refuges. Secret societies continued to fill a place in Russell’s prophetic speculations. He reiterated this in 1879, again presenting them as false, worldly hopes:
Rev. 6:15, figuratively describes that time of falling of kingdoms when every mountain (kingdom) and island shall be moved. The kings and chief ones as well as bondmen will recognize in this trouble that “The great day of His wrath is come,” and will seek to make alliances and to hide themselves from the sure coming storm. They will seek to be covered and protected by the great mountains (kingdoms,) of earth and to be hid in the great rocks of this world's societies. (Masonic, Odd Fellows, &c.,) but they shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's anger,” for “all the kingdoms of the world shall be thrown down,” and instead of these mountains (kingdoms) “the kingdom of the Lord becomes a great mountain, and fills the whole earth.” Daniel 2:35,45. Malachi 4:1 describes the coming day of trouble and sees the anger of the Lord there displayed – “the fire of God's jealousy.” “Behold the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble, and the day that cometh shall burn them up.” Here the wicked are symbolized by stubble, God's wrath by fire, and the righteous by “calves of the stall.” vs. 2.[3]
He continued this thought in the December 1884 issue of Zion’s Watch Tower, writing about social and religious institutions, specifically mentioning Free Masons. He said that human organizations were formed to project strength and influence, to oppose the views of others. They were all worldly, human expressions that gave false hope:
Looking out upon these great civil, social, and religious organizations, all must acknowledge that through their respective unions great strength has been secured. And the strength of each great party has helped to keep the other at bay. In other words, one uplifted arm of flesh has served to protect itself against another arm of flesh, as well as to exchange blows in the struggle for existence. And so the world to-day which has been banding its forces for centuries, and with increased energy during the last century, stands organized in companies of millions on opposite sides of almost every question of general interest. And what does it mean? Where shall it end? When each great band having united its forces, feeling sure that in its union there would be strength, now turns to look upon the equivalent strength of its opponent, the outlook is truly appalling from every standpoint, and men begin to fear if after all, these unions have given them sufficient strength to withstand the approaching conflict, now so manifest to every reasoning mind.
While we have remarked the expressions and indications of fearful apprehension on the part of the great civil organizations, we also note the same indications on the part of prominent exponents of the great religious systems. While each secretly trembles for its own safety, yet outwardly boasts of its security, they note and delight to point out the elements of disintegration at work in each other.[4]
[1] An Internet troll posting on one of the controversialist sites claimed without proof that Storrs and Grew were Free Masons. This booklet gives the lie to that unfounded claim.
[2] C. T. Russell: Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return, Rochester, New York, 1877, pages 56-58.
[3] C. T. Russell: The Day of the Lord, Zion’s Watch Tower, September 1879, page 1. This was reproduced in the 1881 booklet Food for Thinking Christians.
[4] C. T. Russell: View from the Tower, Zion’s Watch Tower, December 1884, page 1.
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177
Charles T Russell -a freemason and the connection to the illuminati...
by dolphman inok, i'm not one for conspiracy theories but lately i've uncovered some interesting facts that i think warrant some attention.. first of all, russell was a freemason.
all the early watchtower and books he authored have freemason symbology and art throughout them.
not a big deal i thought, until i read more about freemasons and the so-called "illuminati", a group of 13 families that supposedly control the world.. supposedly these 13 families, such as the duponts, mcdonalds, kennedys, .
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177
Charles T Russell -a freemason and the connection to the illuminati...
by dolphman inok, i'm not one for conspiracy theories but lately i've uncovered some interesting facts that i think warrant some attention.. first of all, russell was a freemason.
all the early watchtower and books he authored have freemason symbology and art throughout them.
not a big deal i thought, until i read more about freemasons and the so-called "illuminati", a group of 13 families that supposedly control the world.. supposedly these 13 families, such as the duponts, mcdonalds, kennedys, .
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vienne
In what way did Russell and Rutherford copy masons? This doesn't even qualify as suspicion. It's speculation based on nothing but wishful thinking. Nonsense such as this, GLT, is irrational and without proof of any sort. It degrades the message of those who have reason to oppose the Watchtower.The Watch Tower articles written by both men show them struggling to copy first century Christian polity. They may not have succeeded, but that was their goal. Russell was a congregationalist as far as church government goes. This view of governance is nothing like Masonic practice. Rutherford shared this view until 1932. Between then and 1938 he evolved a 'theocratic' [Hierarchical] approach to church governance. These are the main historical interpretations of church governance and have nothing to do with Masonic practice.
AND reslight should know that Rutherford did not plan the pyramid monument. It was designed while Russell was still alive and approved by him.
From Separate Identity, vol 1
Pyramid
A pyramid shaped monument was installed in the Bible Student cemetery in Pittsburgh. The cemetery is occasionally described as Masonic. It’s not. There is a Masonic temple nearby built years later. There is no connection. The pyramid was intended as a general monument with the names of those buried in the Watch Tower plots engraved onto open books. Rather than being a Masonic symbol, the open book motif derives from the book of Revelation. Those who want to cast Russell as part of some great Masonic conspiracy claim the pyramid embodies the “all seeing eye.” It does not. The pyramid symbol refers to Russell’s belief, shared by many others who did not otherwise hold his views, that the Great Pyramid at Gizah was a divinely inspired testimony in stone to Bible truth. We trace the development of this idea in Chapter Three. The use of the pyramid as a monument was suggested not by the back of the US dollar which had an entirely different design in 1920, but by the grave marker for Charles Piazzi Smyth, a prominent pyramidologist and Astronomer Royal of Scotland.
The monument was installed in 1919, some years after Russell’s death. One source suggests Russell designed it, a Bible Student convention report saying: “The Pyramid, as you will note, has an open book carved on each side, intended by Brother Russell for the names of Bethel workers as they ceased their work and were laid at rest, awaiting the great Resurrection of the first-fruits of the Lord.”[1] A Bible Student web page takes pains to blame the pyramid monument on Rutherford rather than Russell. Neither of these statements is correct. The monument was designed not as a memorial to Russell but “as a memorial to the society.” It was “designed by Brother Bohnet, and accepted by Brother Russell as the most fitting emblem for an enduring monument on the Society’s burial space.” According to Bohnet, work started in 1914. The pyramid’s purpose was not Masonic.[2]
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why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
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vienne
Another point: Some of the comments rely on Beckford. His work is dated, and in some ways as flawed as was Stroup's. In my last exchange with him, he said he did not understand major portions of witness history, an honest admission. I do not believe we can rely on work now dated written by a man who is charming and polite but who did not then and does not now, by his own admission, understand his subject.
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149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
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vienne
Those mentally ill who become Witnesses seem to find some comfort in the association. You're evaluation seems accurate to me, Steve, though that's just a feeling rather than based on data.
Bergman is not a class act.
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149
why jw's commit suicide?
by notalone inwe all know the rate of suicide is high among jw's.
my question is this- was there some subliminal messages that encourage this.
i was a born in and my entire life i would have these thoughts that could come out of nowhere,"kill yourself.
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vienne
The suggestion that rates are high among Jehovah's Witnesses comes from Bergman whose research is seriously flawed. Have you read it? Prove to me that suicide rates among Witnesses are higher than the general population.
One of the faults with criticism like this is that it starts with an unproved assumption. There is much to criticize that has a valid basis. Making unproven or faulty claims darkens the message you may want to convey.
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177
Charles T Russell -a freemason and the connection to the illuminati...
by dolphman inok, i'm not one for conspiracy theories but lately i've uncovered some interesting facts that i think warrant some attention.. first of all, russell was a freemason.
all the early watchtower and books he authored have freemason symbology and art throughout them.
not a big deal i thought, until i read more about freemasons and the so-called "illuminati", a group of 13 families that supposedly control the world.. supposedly these 13 families, such as the duponts, mcdonalds, kennedys, .
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vienne
Finkel, My research suggests that the name Kingdom Hall comes from a desire to avoid the misuse of the word 'church.' Church implies a body of believers as does the original Greek word ecclesia and is inappropriately applied to buildings. It was a biggish issue among Watch Tower adherents in the 1930s. The name Kingdom Hall did not originate at Watch Tower headquarters but from a single congregation, if memory serves, in Hawaii. The name stuck.
I don't believe Kingdom Hall comes from Masonic halls.
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177
Charles T Russell -a freemason and the connection to the illuminati...
by dolphman inok, i'm not one for conspiracy theories but lately i've uncovered some interesting facts that i think warrant some attention.. first of all, russell was a freemason.
all the early watchtower and books he authored have freemason symbology and art throughout them.
not a big deal i thought, until i read more about freemasons and the so-called "illuminati", a group of 13 families that supposedly control the world.. supposedly these 13 families, such as the duponts, mcdonalds, kennedys, .
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vienne
Vid, you made me laugh.
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177
Charles T Russell -a freemason and the connection to the illuminati...
by dolphman inok, i'm not one for conspiracy theories but lately i've uncovered some interesting facts that i think warrant some attention.. first of all, russell was a freemason.
all the early watchtower and books he authored have freemason symbology and art throughout them.
not a big deal i thought, until i read more about freemasons and the so-called "illuminati", a group of 13 families that supposedly control the world.. supposedly these 13 families, such as the duponts, mcdonalds, kennedys, .
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vienne
Pyramidology in the Russell era had nothing to do with the occult. It was widely believed even by well known religious figures and archaeologists. It's acceptance was short lived.
From Separate Identity, vol 1:
The Witness of the Great Pyramid
They were introduced to speculations about the Great Pyramid of Giza at least by 1875.[1] How soon they adopted the view that the pyramid was God’s “great stone witness on the border of Egypt” is unknown, but it must have been in this era. As with so much else, claims made about Russell’s belief that the Great Pyramid was a secondary witness to the divine message are often wholly or partly false. One writer suggests that Storrs introduced Pyramidology to “the Millerites,” and that belief centered in Adventist bodies. Those who lack persistence and skill as researchers, the lazy and polemicists may have an interest in limiting belief to “fringe” groups, but this distorts the record. Pyramidology was discussed in America at least by 1861.[2] Believers were a diverse group that ran the spectrum from Astrologers to Thomas De Witt Talmage, a popular Presbyterian and Reformed pastor, who had “no doubt” that Isaiah’s reference to a stone witnesses on the border of Egypt meant the Great Pyramid.[3]
Charles Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal for Scotland, popularized and elaborated the theories of John Taylor, who without visiting the pyramid suggested that it was constructed by Noah. Smyth traveled to Egypt, examining and measuring the pyramid. He penned Our Inheritance in the Great Pyramid which was published in 1864. It attributed the Great Pyramid to Melchizedek and gave it a scientific and religious import. Smyth’s theories gained a following among Egyptologists, not the least of whom was William Matthew Flinders Petrie. But when Flinders Petrie traveled to Egypt in 1880, making his own measurements he found so many flaws in Smyth’s theory that he abandoned it, calling it “lamentable nonsense.” By the end of the 19th Century no reputable Egyptologist supported it.
James K. Walker, president of the Watchman Fellowship, suggested that Pyramidology was “a major source of revelation” for Russell, writing that Russell admitted to this. As is true of most of what Mr. Walker writes, this is absurd. At least one writer claims that Pyramidology attracted Adventists primarily, and many claim that pyramid belief was rank superstition, occultism, or connected to the Masons. All of this is wrong, some of it out of context and some contrived. Certainly, Walker’s claim that Russell was dependent on pyramid measurement for his chronology is false. Ron Rhodes described Russell’s belief that the pyramid fulfilled Isaiah’s prophecy as “cornerstone component” of his belief system. This is also false.
In 1881, Russell wrote that he had “great respect” for the teaching of the Great Pyramid, adding, “We do not build our faith upon it. It has well been called ‘A Miracle in Stone,’ and it commends itself to us as a work of God, and not planned by men, for it seems in every respect to be in perfect accord with God’s plan as we are finding it written in His Word; and this it is, that causes our respect for it.”[4] It is no more true that Russell found in the pyramid a cornerstone of his theology than it is of Clarence Larkin, the Baptist expositor, who also saw the pyramid as God’s stone witness on the border of Egypt.
Russell was introduced to Pyramidology through his One Faith and Millennialist connections. Storrs, writers for Age-to-Come journals, and others promoted Smyth’s ideas and added thoughts of their own. Thomas Wilson’s Our Rest focused on the dual themes of Christ’s return and the Great Pyramid. Russell could not have avoided the discussion. The quotation above shows us that he read J. A. Seiss’ Miracle in Stone when it was published in 1877. Seiss published on the theme in 1869, but while Russell may have read that tract we cannot prove he did. The nature of the Great Pyramid was the subject of lectures, pamphlets, books and public discussion. If it later became the pet theory of fringe religion and occultists, it was not that in this era. We honor Isaac Newton for his science. We forget that when everyone else believed Phlogiston was a scientific reality, he did too. If he were alive today, we’d raise our eyebrows and scoff. Context is everything here. Put in context, Russell’s adoption of Smyth’s theory made him a man of his times. He believed it when others did.
Seiss, whose works are still published, is honored as a serious and scholarly exegete. Others of repute in the religious world found the theory attractive. A long list of favorable reviews of his Miracle in Stone appeared in the religious and secular press. The Illustrated Christian Weekly expressed some reservations but recommended it. The Reformed Church Messenger approached it in the same way. So did The Christian Intelligencer. Messiah’s Herald wrote, “We’re glad that it is being studied by men of learning and piety; and those who have a taste for study in that direction, will find many things in this volume to help them.” We do not know how Russell was introduced to Seiss’ book. He probably heard of it from various sources. The Pittsburgh Dispatch reviewed it, saying: “The lectures of Dr. Seiss are as remarkable for the polished beauty of their construction, as for the information which they contain. That mysterious pillar, the Great Pyramid of Gizeh, its relation to ancient history, modern discoveries, and Bible connections, are thoroughly canvassed in this volume.” If we are to fault Russell at all, it is for believing the theory long after its defects were apparent.
[1] The Great Pyramid, Bible Examiner, 1875, page 233 ff.
[2] 1861 New York Tribune Almanac, page 3.
[3] T. De Witt Talmage: Lesson of the Pyramid, The Peekskill, New York, Highland Democrat, October 24, 1891.
[4] C. T. Russell: The Year 1881, Zion’s Watch Tower, May 1881, page 5.
https://www.amazon.com/Separate-Identity-Organizational-Readers-1870-1887/dp/1304969401