vienne

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Posts by vienne

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  55

  Knorr Family

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for a secondary project, i need basic biography of n. h. knorr's parents and brother and sister.

  we have some details, which i have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

  if you can add to this, please do..

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  vienne

  For a secondary project, I need basic biography of N. H. Knorr's parents and brother and sister. We have some details, which I have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

  If you can add to this, please do.
  
  
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  33

  Door-to-door preaching as surveillance

  by john.prestor in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i wanted to share some thoughts about jehovah's witnesses and their door-to-door preaching.

  door-to-door preaching is supposedly about gathering converts, but in fact, as we frequently discuss, doesn't actually bring that many "sheep-like ones" in.

  i want to suggest that a second meaning (what we call the latent meaning in academia) is facilitating surveillance of the congregants who attend some congregation.

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  vienne

  We will include a chapter on the development of personal evangelism in the Russell era in vol. 2. of Separate Identity. It is a work in progress, but I've posted the first part of that chapter in rough draft on our history blog:

  https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
  
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  3

  Help with a project, please

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm slowly working on an article for a history journal.

  i need watchtower letters, either to the congregations or to individuals from 1940 to 1960. i need them no matter how inconsequential they may seem.

  if you have some to share, pm me.

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  vienne

  NBD and OC, Thanks so much for your help.
  
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  3

  Help with a project, please

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm slowly working on an article for a history journal.

  i need watchtower letters, either to the congregations or to individuals from 1940 to 1960. i need them no matter how inconsequential they may seem.

  if you have some to share, pm me.

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  vienne

  I'm slowly working on an article for a history journal. I need Watchtower letters, either to the congregations or to individuals from 1940 to 1960. I need them no matter how inconsequential they may seem. If you have some to share, PM me.

  Thanks for your help.
  
• 
  7

  Lost history found ...

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of our research helpers, an expert on watchtower history, located the original of smyth's letter that appears in studies volume 3. he's prepared an illustrated article for our history blog entitled "william morris wright and charles piazzi smyth.

  " [you probably know smyth as royal astronomer for scotland and a pyramidologist.. a few of you follow our research.

  i think those interested in watchtower history in the russell era will find this interesting:.

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  vienne

  One of our comments on Russell's borrowing:

  Outside observers and antagonists commented on the mixture of doctrines out of which Watch Tower teachings were compounded. They seldom identified the exact sources. After William G. Moorehead, a professor at United Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Xenia, Ohio, pronounced “Millennial Dawn of C. T. Russell a mixture of Unitarianism, Universalism, Second Probation, and Restorationism, and the Swdenborgian method of exegesis” he was parroted endlessly and uncritically. Charles Cyrus Cook suggested more wide ranging sources for Russell’s theology:

  "It seems as though in his earlier years, in his haberdasher’s shop in Allegheny, when business was dull, or after business hours, Russell had gathered together all the scraps and remnants of ancient errors, such as Gnosticism (know-it-all-ism), Manicheism, Arianism, Sabellianism, Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Pelagianism, etc., etc., and had cast them, one and all, into the fusing-pot of his own great and fervid imagination, and that “Millennial Dawnism” came forth to enlighten (?) benighted humanity."[1]

  None of Russell’s theology derived from these “ancient errors.” While C. C. Cook, D.D., was apparently educated somewhere, we are safe in claiming that he either could not define these ancient belief systems or he simply made this up out of his own “fervid imagination.” Claims such as these were scare tactics used without regard to the facts. Two elements are at play here. Some expected something ‘original’ from Russell, and failing to find it wrote off everything he taught. Russell, of course, would have been horrified at the suggestion that he originated anything. He sought to recapture Scriptural truth and the First Century Christian polity. Labeling Watch Tower teachings allowed opposers to avoid engagement. It was like slapping a poison label on a bottle of water without having tested it. Most “refutations” of Watch Tower teaching consisted of personal attacks or the suggestion that believing Millennial Dawn doctrine led to a degraded Christian personality.[2] There was a restating, sometimes an inaccurate one, of Watch Tower teaching presented for the “shock” value.[3] There were few serious attempts to refute Watch Tower doctrine.

  While Russell and his associates derived their beliefs from varied sources, most of them came from within the One Faith movement. This doesn’t mean they uncritically accepted everything that came their way, and they certainly achieved something less than unity. But it was the unique doctrinal blend believed by the majority that gave them a separate identity. This was a process that covered some years, culminating with the publication of Millennial Dawn: The Plan of the Ages in 1886. Zygmunt suggests that Russell’s election as pastor and an increasing doctrinal unity were key elements in establishing a separate identity:

  "The transition from study-circle to congregation reflected not only Russell’s emergence as a leader within the Allegheny group but also the crystallization of a more or less distinctive doctrinal system. Although “bible study” continued to be an important feature of congregational activity, its initially “open-ended” exploratory character tended to wane in proportion as basic “truths” were discovered and instituted as creedal tenets. Formal sermon and “bible discourse” became more prominent parts of the proceedings, congregational “bible study” increasingly assuming the form of a selective review of scriptures supporting particular beliefs, and eventually being supplemented by more devotional exercises. The crystallization of a doctrinal system was important, in turn, in transforming the purely local congregation into a trans-local sectarian movement."[4]

  While we must note that Zygmunt supposes a unity that didn’t completely exist in 1876 or for some years thereafter, this is a good summary of events. Zygmunt’s research suffered from lack of resources and an occasional presumption made without evidence, but he was correct when he wrote: “The movement’s collective identity and earthly mission were derived directly from this configuration of beliefs.”[5]

  Alan Thomas Rogerson, a former adherent, found it surprising that Russell originated nothing. We’re equally surprised at his amazement. Russell made his role as a restorer of “truth” plain. He denied originating anything. A passing acquaintance with his writings shows this. Never-the-less, Rogerson reached the sound conclusion that the Bible Study group’s doctrinal set gave them a separate identity:

  "It is perhaps surprising that Russell was so dependent on others for his ideas and was not an innovator as far doctrines were concerned. His system of belief, which ultimately formed the ideology of the sect he founded, was one that strongly appealed to laymen. This fits the way it was constructed, as Russell, still a young man in search for a satisfactory system, selected doctrines from his various teachers and fitted them together in a way that appealed to him. It was this unique arrangement of doctrines that characterizes Russell’s ideology and not the originality of any of its parts."[6]

  
  

  ---

  [1] C. C. Cook: More Data on Pastor Russell, the author, no date but c. 1912, page 4. Having read much of what Dr. Cook wrote about Russell and about the Catholic Church, one of the authors of this work suggests that “C. C. Cook” is a misspelling for “C. C. Kook.”

  [2] “We have observed Russellism for a long time and have never yet known an unregenerate person who looked into it, but who liked it. It is a religion made strictly for the fleshly man, and is a perfect fit.” – C. C. Cook, op. cit., page 5.

  [3] Walter T. Conner, a Baptist clergyman and professor, admitted as much: “His teachings are so absurd and so contrary to commonly accepted Christian principles that a statement of what he taught is enough. To state his teaching is to refute it.” – W. T. Conner: The Teachings of Pastor Russell, Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, 1926, page 5.

  [4] J. Zygmunt: Dissertation, page 205

  [5] J. Zygmunt: Prophetic Failure and Chiliastic Identity, published in Jon R. Stone [editor]: Expecting Armageddon, Essential Readings in Failed Prophecy, Routledge, 2002, page, 68.

  [6] A. T. Rogerson: A Sociological Analysis of the Origin and Development of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their Schismatic Groups, Thesis submitted for D.Phil., Oxford University, 1972, page 38. As with many researchers from the decade of the 1970s, Rogerson’s work is flawed by dependence on secondary sources.

  From Separate Identity, vol. One
  
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  101

  Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

  by atomant in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

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  vienne

  I associated for sometime with a small Church of God General Conference - Atlanta congregation. We parted amicably over a doctrinal difference. I'm still friends with the members and still see them often. There were no 'hidden' doctrines. I knew of the difference when I entered the association and was willing to tolerate it - until I wasn't. They're mostly Socinian. I am not.
  
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  9

  Financial Wizards & Wealthy Cults The Rothschild Bloodline AND Connection to JW's.

  by JakeM2012 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was doing research on the political powers in the u.s. and what exactly was the drive, goals, and ambitions between the different parties.

  i stumbled upon information regarding the illuminati/rothchild family having great power throughout the world with different parties and the rothchild's goal to have a new world order from hundreds of years back and how they were involved in satanic worship.

  it was interesting to see that c.t.

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  vienne

  Open accounts are 'lines of credit." Lines of credit are similar to checking accounts, but if the owner draws more than the balance the overage becomes a short-term LOAN. This is a business practice. The banks were not financing the Watchtower.

  I haven't had time to drag it out yet, but the original Russell letter is in Zion's Watch Tower for 1895. It wasn't to Rothschild, though it referenced him. It was about Jewish settlement in Palestine. Russell was a Zionist; he believed as his Literalist predecessors did that the Jews would be resettled in a reconstituted Israel. Rothschild was financing resettlement of European Jews in Palestine. Hence, Russell's interest.
  

  Just writing to someone does not mean they support you. I've written many letters to people I would not associate with socially simply for information or to express my opinion. The "rule of thumb" behind my history writing is: "If it seems improbable, it probably is." Confirm before you believe.

  I've just gotten out of the hospital, and I'm more than a little sick. Be patient, and as I can I will copy out the original letter and post it.
  
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  7

  Lost history found ...

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of our research helpers, an expert on watchtower history, located the original of smyth's letter that appears in studies volume 3. he's prepared an illustrated article for our history blog entitled "william morris wright and charles piazzi smyth.

  " [you probably know smyth as royal astronomer for scotland and a pyramidologist.. a few of you follow our research.

  i think those interested in watchtower history in the russell era will find this interesting:.

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  vienne

  One of our research helpers, an expert on Watchtower history, located the original of Smyth's letter that appears in Studies volume 3. He's prepared an illustrated article for our history blog entitled "William Morris Wright and Charles Piazzi Smyth." [You probably know Smyth as Royal Astronomer for Scotland and a Pyramidologist.

  A few of you follow our research. I think those interested in Watchtower history in the Russell era will find this interesting:

  https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2018/11/william-morris-wright-and-charles.html
  
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  64

  HYMNS you will never hear at the Kingdom Hall

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  do you have examples of hymns you will never hear in kingdom halls in any country.. here are a few of my favorites:.

  https://youtu.be/cjivdc-_njs.

  https://youtu.be/7gfvl0ef-be .

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  vienne

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b9KBA7V98E
  
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  101

  Who is the mediator for jehovahs witnesses?

  by atomant in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  lm getting conflicting advice.ls it the 144000 or jesus.l was always under the impression it was jesus.lf its the 144000 then when they pray the jw;s should be praying through the remnant not in jesus christs name but in the 144000;s name..

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  vienne

  You still miss the point. In Witness theology and in the New Testament Jesus is mediator of the new covenant. Nothing in what you quoted shows that the 'anointed' or the governing body are mediators. You still confuse Jesus' office as propitiator with his office as mediator. Your quotation does show that Witnesses believe they are the one true religion. They believe that if you leave their religion - since it is the one true religion in their belief - then you reject Jesus' ransom. Nonsense of course. But the WT does not teach that they are mediators.

  They teach, and this much is biblical, that Jesus fills two offices. Jesus is a covenant mediator. He is the high priest, who propitiates God in behalf of all men. [1 Jn 2:2; 4:10] You are right in rejecting Witness theology. You are wrong in your terminology, in your definition of Witness doctrine. Witnesses see Christ as the propitiator between God and all men.

  Most who object to Witness mediator doctrine think that the mediator represents them to God and covers their sins. That's not the mediatorial office. Jesus' mediation was of the New Covenant. The Bible says this. Witnesses believe that only a few are in that covenant. Even if so, all men benefit by Jesus' office as propitator. Witnesses do not teach that salvation comes by others than Christ. They do teach that they have the one true faith. That's improbable, but other religions see themselves as the one true faith too. They're not exceptional in this.

  Broken down into its components, Witness doctrine does not deny salvation to some 'great crowd'. They deny that these are in the New Covenant. As I see it, all Christians are in the New Covenant and Witness doctrine comes not from the Bible but from mid 19th Century teaching by an Anglican and by a Brethren preacher. I oppose their doctrine. But if we wish to refute it, we must be exact in our terminology or we persuade no one but those who already reject their doctrine.