vienne

Joined

• started 100 topics
• posted 1,381 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by vienne

• 
  55

  Knorr Family

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for a secondary project, i need basic biography of n. h. knorr's parents and brother and sister.

  we have some details, which i have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

  if you can add to this, please do..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  I use them as a base for other things ... but still no relation to N. H. Knorr.
  
• 
  55

  Knorr Family

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for a secondary project, i need basic biography of n. h. knorr's parents and brother and sister.

  we have some details, which i have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

  if you can add to this, please do..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  No relationship between Knorr's family and the soup company.
  
• 
  55

  Knorr Family

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for a secondary project, i need basic biography of n. h. knorr's parents and brother and sister.

  we have some details, which i have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

  if you can add to this, please do..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  Added some more Knorr family information to our blog. See the link above.
  
• 
  51

  What are your favorite musical scores in film?

  by LoveUniHateExams in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  hi guys!.

  this thread is at least partly inspired by blondie's classical music thread.. i'm not particularly a musical person but i do appreciate good scores in film.. what are your favorites?.

  here's a well-known movie score i like .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btdleusg9ew .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  Favorite? Hard to say. Like music I do. But the condensation of Beethoven's 9th for this movie is spectacular.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkj0TeZeZuo
  
• 
  55

  Knorr Family

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for a secondary project, i need basic biography of n. h. knorr's parents and brother and sister.

  we have some details, which i have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

  if you can add to this, please do..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  NewB, total nonsense. N. H. Knorr lived in the Allentown PA area through all his youth, attending the high school there. He was raised in the Reformed Church in Allentown, not the Hitler youth. He worked part time as a retail clerk when in his teens and attending school.
  

  Gorb, Someone sent me a genealogy of the family. It suggests they came from Denmark originally. Or at least some of his ancestors did. On the other hand, the family attended the Dutch Reformed Church. I don't know at this point. But I will follow up on your comment.
  
• 
  55

  Knorr Family

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for a secondary project, i need basic biography of n. h. knorr's parents and brother and sister.

  we have some details, which i have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.

  if you can add to this, please do..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  For a secondary project, I need basic biography of N. H. Knorr's parents and brother and sister. We have some details, which I have posted on our history blog: https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

  If you can add to this, please do.
  
  
• 
  33

  Door-to-door preaching as surveillance

  by john.prestor in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i wanted to share some thoughts about jehovah's witnesses and their door-to-door preaching.

  door-to-door preaching is supposedly about gathering converts, but in fact, as we frequently discuss, doesn't actually bring that many "sheep-like ones" in.

  i want to suggest that a second meaning (what we call the latent meaning in academia) is facilitating surveillance of the congregants who attend some congregation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  We will include a chapter on the development of personal evangelism in the Russell era in vol. 2. of Separate Identity. It is a work in progress, but I've posted the first part of that chapter in rough draft on our history blog:

  https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
  
• 
  3

  Help with a project, please

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm slowly working on an article for a history journal.

  i need watchtower letters, either to the congregations or to individuals from 1940 to 1960. i need them no matter how inconsequential they may seem.

  if you have some to share, pm me.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  NBD and OC, Thanks so much for your help.
  
• 
  3

  Help with a project, please

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm slowly working on an article for a history journal.

  i need watchtower letters, either to the congregations or to individuals from 1940 to 1960. i need them no matter how inconsequential they may seem.

  if you have some to share, pm me.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  I'm slowly working on an article for a history journal. I need Watchtower letters, either to the congregations or to individuals from 1940 to 1960. I need them no matter how inconsequential they may seem. If you have some to share, PM me.

  Thanks for your help.
  
• 
  7

  Lost history found ...

  by vienne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of our research helpers, an expert on watchtower history, located the original of smyth's letter that appears in studies volume 3. he's prepared an illustrated article for our history blog entitled "william morris wright and charles piazzi smyth.

  " [you probably know smyth as royal astronomer for scotland and a pyramidologist.. a few of you follow our research.

  i think those interested in watchtower history in the russell era will find this interesting:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  vienne

  One of our comments on Russell's borrowing:

  Outside observers and antagonists commented on the mixture of doctrines out of which Watch Tower teachings were compounded. They seldom identified the exact sources. After William G. Moorehead, a professor at United Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Xenia, Ohio, pronounced “Millennial Dawn of C. T. Russell a mixture of Unitarianism, Universalism, Second Probation, and Restorationism, and the Swdenborgian method of exegesis” he was parroted endlessly and uncritically. Charles Cyrus Cook suggested more wide ranging sources for Russell’s theology:

  "It seems as though in his earlier years, in his haberdasher’s shop in Allegheny, when business was dull, or after business hours, Russell had gathered together all the scraps and remnants of ancient errors, such as Gnosticism (know-it-all-ism), Manicheism, Arianism, Sabellianism, Apollinarianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Pelagianism, etc., etc., and had cast them, one and all, into the fusing-pot of his own great and fervid imagination, and that “Millennial Dawnism” came forth to enlighten (?) benighted humanity."[1]

  None of Russell’s theology derived from these “ancient errors.” While C. C. Cook, D.D., was apparently educated somewhere, we are safe in claiming that he either could not define these ancient belief systems or he simply made this up out of his own “fervid imagination.” Claims such as these were scare tactics used without regard to the facts. Two elements are at play here. Some expected something ‘original’ from Russell, and failing to find it wrote off everything he taught. Russell, of course, would have been horrified at the suggestion that he originated anything. He sought to recapture Scriptural truth and the First Century Christian polity. Labeling Watch Tower teachings allowed opposers to avoid engagement. It was like slapping a poison label on a bottle of water without having tested it. Most “refutations” of Watch Tower teaching consisted of personal attacks or the suggestion that believing Millennial Dawn doctrine led to a degraded Christian personality.[2] There was a restating, sometimes an inaccurate one, of Watch Tower teaching presented for the “shock” value.[3] There were few serious attempts to refute Watch Tower doctrine.

  While Russell and his associates derived their beliefs from varied sources, most of them came from within the One Faith movement. This doesn’t mean they uncritically accepted everything that came their way, and they certainly achieved something less than unity. But it was the unique doctrinal blend believed by the majority that gave them a separate identity. This was a process that covered some years, culminating with the publication of Millennial Dawn: The Plan of the Ages in 1886. Zygmunt suggests that Russell’s election as pastor and an increasing doctrinal unity were key elements in establishing a separate identity:

  "The transition from study-circle to congregation reflected not only Russell’s emergence as a leader within the Allegheny group but also the crystallization of a more or less distinctive doctrinal system. Although “bible study” continued to be an important feature of congregational activity, its initially “open-ended” exploratory character tended to wane in proportion as basic “truths” were discovered and instituted as creedal tenets. Formal sermon and “bible discourse” became more prominent parts of the proceedings, congregational “bible study” increasingly assuming the form of a selective review of scriptures supporting particular beliefs, and eventually being supplemented by more devotional exercises. The crystallization of a doctrinal system was important, in turn, in transforming the purely local congregation into a trans-local sectarian movement."[4]

  While we must note that Zygmunt supposes a unity that didn’t completely exist in 1876 or for some years thereafter, this is a good summary of events. Zygmunt’s research suffered from lack of resources and an occasional presumption made without evidence, but he was correct when he wrote: “The movement’s collective identity and earthly mission were derived directly from this configuration of beliefs.”[5]

  Alan Thomas Rogerson, a former adherent, found it surprising that Russell originated nothing. We’re equally surprised at his amazement. Russell made his role as a restorer of “truth” plain. He denied originating anything. A passing acquaintance with his writings shows this. Never-the-less, Rogerson reached the sound conclusion that the Bible Study group’s doctrinal set gave them a separate identity:

  "It is perhaps surprising that Russell was so dependent on others for his ideas and was not an innovator as far doctrines were concerned. His system of belief, which ultimately formed the ideology of the sect he founded, was one that strongly appealed to laymen. This fits the way it was constructed, as Russell, still a young man in search for a satisfactory system, selected doctrines from his various teachers and fitted them together in a way that appealed to him. It was this unique arrangement of doctrines that characterizes Russell’s ideology and not the originality of any of its parts."[6]

  
  

  ---

  [1] C. C. Cook: More Data on Pastor Russell, the author, no date but c. 1912, page 4. Having read much of what Dr. Cook wrote about Russell and about the Catholic Church, one of the authors of this work suggests that “C. C. Cook” is a misspelling for “C. C. Kook.”

  [2] “We have observed Russellism for a long time and have never yet known an unregenerate person who looked into it, but who liked it. It is a religion made strictly for the fleshly man, and is a perfect fit.” – C. C. Cook, op. cit., page 5.

  [3] Walter T. Conner, a Baptist clergyman and professor, admitted as much: “His teachings are so absurd and so contrary to commonly accepted Christian principles that a statement of what he taught is enough. To state his teaching is to refute it.” – W. T. Conner: The Teachings of Pastor Russell, Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, 1926, page 5.

  [4] J. Zygmunt: Dissertation, page 205

  [5] J. Zygmunt: Prophetic Failure and Chiliastic Identity, published in Jon R. Stone [editor]: Expecting Armageddon, Essential Readings in Failed Prophecy, Routledge, 2002, page, 68.

  [6] A. T. Rogerson: A Sociological Analysis of the Origin and Development of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their Schismatic Groups, Thesis submitted for D.Phil., Oxford University, 1972, page 38. As with many researchers from the decade of the 1970s, Rogerson’s work is flawed by dependence on secondary sources.

  From Separate Identity, vol. One