Most of Johnson's books are in my uncle's research collection, and I've read many of them. Johnson was undeniably intelligent, but he was another self-anointed writer. That clouds his retelling of events. A self-anointed person (or a small group within the body of believers) with a special divine choosing characterizes what historians call Christian Mysticism. This is not spiritualism, but describes sects defined by a belief that one or a small set of their number have special divine appointment and guidance. Sound familiar?
Posts by vienne
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32C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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543
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen inhello my friends,.
here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.
revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).
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vienne
On a church reader board: "To the thief who stole our air conditioners: Keep one; it's hot where you're going.
And no, I don't really believe in a fiery hell.
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543
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen inhello my friends,.
here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.
revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).
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vienne
Speculating on Bible verses as K does is not exegesis. It's Eisegesis, It's what Jesus meant at Matthew 7:22f:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
As Josh Turner would have it, he's ridding the "long black train."
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543
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen inhello my friends,.
here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.
revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).
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vienne
Quee,
How appropriate.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
I'm not, nor is any of my family, associated with Russellites. I'm a "budding" historian, still in university. I'll have my MA by mid June next. I honor ethics. Ethically, historians should write accurate history. What happens here most often is a repeat of claims that have no basis in fact. If one opposes the Witnesses, making false, misleading claims will weaken your argument. You will preach to the quire, but that has no real effect.
Do I think Russell was the faithful slave? No, the claim was a bit of wild imagination, and though he was careful to not make the claim in public, he believed it. One can find it, if memory serves, only one time from his pen and that in a 1909 Watch Tower article. Don't ask. I'm too busy to look it up.
The transcript of the Ross trial [The King vs. J. J. Ross] has this:
Q: Did you ever give out that you were "some great one?"
A: No Sir.
Q: Never did it?
A: No Sir.
Q: You were never the servant, never prophesied no time that you were the servant mentioned in the 24th of St. Matthew?
A: I never did, but some of my friends suggested that they believed that the Scripture in Matthew 24-25 was applicable to myself. I have never said it was, and I have never said it was not. I may have merely said I did not know whether it was or not.
This is not totally true. Schulz and de Vienne: Separate Identity, vol. 1 wrote:
Revisionists more contemporary to ourselves say that Russell never claimed to be the Faithful Servant. This is what our grandmother (Great Grandmother for one of us) would have called “hooie.” Russell believed that he was “chosen for his great work from before birth,” telling his associates that. If one rejects the testimony of his associates, including P. S. L. Johnson and C. Woodworth, one must provide solid reasons for doing so. We see no grounds upon which to reject their testimony. While most of this argument is best played out in Book Three of this series, we should note that Russell never corrected claims that he was “that servant.” Examples of “uncorrected” claims are found in various convention reports where he is frequently referred to as “that Servant.” Russell saw himself in this era as a divinely appointed teacher. Starting in 1895, he described himself as “God’s mouthpiece” first as a reference to the Millennial Dawn series which, of course he wrote; then as a direct reference to himself. The only other way he used this phrase was to refer to God’s prophets of old.
This paragraph is supported by the following footnotes:
55 The claim appears to have been first made by Horace Hollister within Russell’s lifetime. See: Cryptology of the Kingdom, St. Paul Enterprise, 1914, page 70. More recently it was made by a Watch Tower writer in God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached. Hollister testifies only to what he saw in print or heard. In point of fact, Russell makes the claim in 1909. We can add E. C. Henninges to the list of those who said Russell claimed to be the Faithful and Wise Servant. See The Watch Tower Confusion, New Covenant Advocate, April 1, 1927, page 5ff, where he presents proof.
56 Woodworth and Fisher: Finished Mystery, Watch Tower Society, Brooklyn, 1917, page 53.
57 C. T. Russell: Concerning Profitable Meetings, Zion’s Watch Tower, September 15, 1895, page 217; Harvest Gatherings and Siftings, July 15, 1906, page 229. One should note that in the original of the 1906 article (as first published in 1890) he used the phrase “the truths we present as God’s mouthpieces.” In the 1906 article he dropped the “we,” substituting “I” for it.
Russell printed the text of a letter addressed to him in the June 15, 1899, Watch Tower in which the writer referred to Russell as the faithful and wise servant. Russell printed it without demure. Again from Schulz and de Vienne (yes, that's my mother): "Two things are apparent here. Russell reproduced Randle’s circular letter without rebuke or demure. This puts the lie to revisionists who say he never claimed to be the Faithful and Wise Servant. That he let others make the claim without protesting shows that he did, in fact, see himself as the fulfillment of a last-times prophecy."
That's the history of the claim, in brief. It was and remains fanciful. We should note that the identification of Russell as the Laodicean Messenger did not come from Russell but from C. J.Woodworth's commentary on Revelation found in Finished Mystery.
Most of the unfounded, rather silly but still believed claims about Russell (and Rutherford) do not stand up under scrutiny. Repeating them does a disservice, and damages your arguments in opposition to Watchtower theology and practice. And most Witnessed do not care about their history, certainly not about events of a century ago. Do your due diligence, and research authoritative sources material before you post nonsense.
If one wishes to please gullible former adherents who seek anything to justify their leaving the faith, then by all means repeat every claim whether factual or not. Someone will be pleased by it and believe it uncritically. I don't see the need for justification. If you do not wish to remain a Witness, just leave. You do not need justification.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
Read the complete text and you will see it wasn't a claim to being a member of a mazonic lodge.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
More nonsense. Russell's date system was derived from Anglican writers, especially E. B. Elliot's Horae. Russell saw substantiation of his beliefs in the Pyramid but saw it as a poor basis on which to base one's faith. In 1881 Russell addressed widely spread expectations concerning 1881 saying that his belief did not rely on pyramid measurements: "Now to us, these things seem a poor and weak foundation for the hopes built upon them. Our belief that the Lord is present, is based on the “more sure word of prophecy” to which Peter said, we would do well to take heed." [C. T. Russell: The Year 1881, Zion’s Watch Tower, May 1881, page 5.]
Pyramidology was current in his day and many well-known Protestant clergy believed similarly. This included Seiss, a Lutheran whose works are still reprinted as classics of Christian exposition, and C. Larkin, a Baptist whose works are still admired. H. J. Lambert, once a prominent Australian Baptist clergyman, told the Hill Street Baptist Church that the Great Pyramid pointed unmistakably to 1881; it wouldn’t mark the end of the world, but a “great change would take place in that year.” [Church Anniversary – Lecture on the Great Pyramid, The Kapunda, South Australia, Herald¸ May 23, 1879.] In 1877 the Advent Christian Church [Not SDA] published a booklet advocating similar views.
Schulz: Separate Identity, vol 2 observes:
"In volume one, we asserted considerable interest in the Great Pyramid as a prophetic witness to “God’s Plan.” Interest reached its peak as 1881 approached with lectures and booklets proliferating. A detailed history of pyramidology is inappropriate here. A few examples will do. James French, a Baptist clergyman, presented two lectures on the pyramid’s significance to the Baptist Ministers’ Conference. The first lecture, delivered in New York City. Baptist clergy listened attentively for an hour and a quarter, thanking him and arranging for part two. French turned his lecture into a series of articles for Baptist Family Magazine.
"French was far from unique. Dr. Rufus W. Clark, a Reformed clergyman, also advocated pyramidology. J. A. Seiss lectured with some regularity through 1883. Edson Rogers, a Congregational clergyman from Cincinnatus, New York, did as well. Newspapers of the period note numerous lectures on the topic by clergymen, self-appointed and real professors and “experts,” all of whom saw the pyramid as a prophetic witness and many of whom pointed to 1881 as a year of destiny. Watch Tower and Barbourite belief may seem strange from our vantage point, but compared with contemporary belief, it was tame.
"As late as August 1881, S. A Chaplin, editor of The Restitution, suggested that “the Great Pyramid indicates some great political event in 1881-2. A great change in human affairs is impending and at the door.” Barbour gave his readers a summary of Charles Piazzi Smyth’s pyramid measurements, concluding that this was “an interesting coincidence ... as the floor measure points to 1881, for, as we believe, the commencement of the return of literal Israel; the 6 years, ‘impending,’ is the exact measure of the time from the spring of 1875, where according to the jubilee cycles, the ‘times of restitution,’ should have begun. Again: The mouth of the well, the type of Christ's death, is 33 inches from the Grand Gallery; and this 33 inches added to the measure of the Grand Gallery floor 1881, make 1914, the date of the end of ‘The Times of the Gentiles.’”
Russell's view of the Pyramid had nothing to do with spiritism, but with the belief that Melchizedek built the pyramid to stand a a prophetic reference. In its day Pryamidology attracted many clergy. Russell followed the crowd, persuaded by the coincidence that some measurements matched the chronology he adopted from Elliot and a host of other clergy, primarily Anglicans and Presbyterians.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
From Schulz and de Vienne's Separate Identity volume 1:
"Both E. D. Stewart and J. F. Rutherford suggest that he devoted much time, even years, to the study of Oriental religions. Stewart wrote that “the next few years were devoted to the investigation of the claims of the leading Oriental religions,” and Rutherford said “he devoted much time” to the investigation. Neither claim is correct. Stewart’s claim is untenable because of the known chronology. Even if Russell had devoted every waking hour to reading Oriental religion, no more than months would have passed. Rutherford’s claim is equally unsupportable simply from the standpoint of available time. P. S. L. Johnson, one of Russell’s associates, suggests that his study of Oriental religion was brief and limited by a rejection of what he saw as ‘absurdities.’ Johnson says Russell began his investigation with Chinese religious thought, rejecting it because of a creation story. “That was enough of the Chinese religion for him!” Johnson wrote, adding that “worse absurdities … made him reject Hindooism and Buddhism.” He rejected “Mohammedanism” at least partly because it was based on the Old Testament. An examination of Russell’s Plan of the Ages shows Johnson is correct."
Freemasonry is not an oriental religion. The claim that Russell was a mason as been debunked here many times.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
Total nonsense. Read his What Say the Scriptures about Spiritism and come back to us.
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2909
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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vienne
This isn't Lloyd. As far as I know there is no blood relation unless it's a very distant one. But his appearance remnds me of Lloyd. Okay yes this is a useless post, but I'm making it anyway.
https://www.aol.com/news/texas-inmate-faces-execution-2001-052950833.html