I'm not married and not considering marriage at this time. However, no husband of mine would successfully tell me what to do with my health decisions. Period.
Posts by vienne
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40PIMI wife told to go against her husband and take the vaccines?
by ExBethelitenowPIMA inif a pimi sister has been told by her unbelieving husband not to take these experimental vaccines then what is official jw policy in this situation?.
should she go against her husband and tell him i will do what the men at my church tell me?.
what on earth will the husband think then?
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C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
British and Continental Literalism predates Millerite Adventism by centuries. If we define Adventism as any belief in the near return of Christ, then yes, Russellism is Advenism. However, Adventists and Literalists in the Russell era strongly rejected each others theology. Literalists refused the designation Adventist. This continues though with different designators. Fundamentalists believe in the ear return of Christ. We do not define them as Adventists, and in fact, they are not. They stand in the Literalist tradition.
When in 1881 a small congregation in Kingston, New York, was described as Adventist one of their members responded to the local newspaper:
Lest the grave charge of numerical insignificance be inadequate to the complete extinction of a ‘half dozen’ religious worshipers, they must be brought into the inquisition again to be placed upon the rack and be thrust through with the deadly charge of being ‘akin to the second adventists’! We were not aware of any kinship existing between us and the second adventists, without it could be established upon the isolated truth of the personal second advent of Jesus to this earth. But mark you, if that isolated truth can establish a kinship between us it will also prove and establish a kinship between Rev. Dr. Lorimer [then a prominent Baptist clergyman] and the second adventists, and, by your curious and extraordinary method of gauging a man’s standing, it would place him, as well as the ‘six in the small upper room in the American Block,’ under the ban and the fetters of social and religious ostracism. For his sermon on ‘the future of Jesus’ is a scholarly, elaborate and eloquent vindication of the doctrine of the personal, visible and premillennial second advent of Jesus to this earth. [Original spelling and punctuation retained.] - The Halfbreed Church, The Buffalo, New York, Evening News, July 12, 1882.
Russell and millennialist clergy were careful to distinguish themselves from Millerite Adventism. The reverse was true. Adventists were careful to distinguish themselves from Age to Come millennarianism. Storrs left Adventism in 1844 but continued to teach the near return of Christ. L. C. Gunn, a prominent Millerite, wrote of Storrs' meetings in Philadelphia that: "These were the published views of Geo. Storrs. ... In these views they differed entirely from Mr. Miller and the great body of Advent believers in this country, but agreeing with the Literalists of England (Millennarians)." - Quoted in I. C. Wellcome: History of the Second Advent Message and Mission, 1874, page 382. For similar matter making the same distinction see for instance, Amos Sanford: Controversy, The Restitution, June 23, 1875.
This distinction is made repeatedly into the 20th Century. But more importantly, it was strongly made by Russell and Adventists when discussing the other's views. For instance in the July 18, 1877, issue the Advent Christian Times warned against their work:
"One N. H. Barbour, called Dr. Barbour, with his confreres, J. H. Paton and C. T. Russell, is traveling around the country, going everywhere that they can find Adventists, and preaching that Jesus has come secretly, and will soon be revealed and mingling in their lectures a lot of “Age-to-come” trash, all to subvert their hearers. They are not endorsed by Adventists, “Age-to-come” folks, or anybody else, yet having some money and a few sympathizers they will probably run awhile. They have been to Ohio and Indiana and are working westward. We are credibly informed that one of them boasted in Union Mills, Ind., a few days since, that they would break up every Advent church in the land. We guess not. Their whole work is proselytizing. The Lord never sent them on their mission. Give them no place, and go not near them or countenance them."
Schulz and de Vienne discuss the distinction at length, and they probe the origins of Age to Come Literalism. You should read the Separate Identity series. If we wish to be honest historians, we will acknowledge the definitions of each movement as they saw themselves. Defining any belief in the near return of Christ as Adventism is inexact at best. Do we call Campellites Adventist because Campbell strongly advocated the doctrine? Do we call Evangelicals Adventists because they see his return as near? Hardly. So do we define Russell as an Adventist despite adopting Literialism, a far older theology than Millerite Adventism? We should not.
I highly recommend R. M. de Vienne's introduction to volume 2 of Separate Identity. It's too long to post here, and I do not have permission to do so. But it is the clearest of all advocates for a distinction between Russellism and Adventism based on origin of doctrines, self-definitions of the various parties involved, and a detailed examination of those things within Russellite theology that are supposed to be Adventist.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
Pyramid stuff:
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
Baal,
You didn't read what I wrote earlier. I'm seven months away from my MA (History). I'm not stupid enough to take what I write from secondary sources. Read the originals? I've read every Watch Tower from 1879 through 1925. All the Old Theology Quarterly tracts, convention reports and other booklets and tracts. I have them as originals or as scans of originals. My suggestion to you is that you read the material yourself and follow the trail left by cognate religions.
I should add that I'm Schulz's (He's the principal author of the continuing Separate Identity series) research assistant. That's B. W. Schulz, PhD, FRHistS. That makes me more equipped to comment on Russell's antecedents than you are. You've swallowed without critical thought what you've found on the internet. That has not served you well.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
Russell era doctrine was not Adventist, but Age to Come, the American designation for British Literalism. Russell had known contacts with Second Adventists, that is Advent Christian Association and Life and Advent Union advocates. But he adopted the doctrines of the older Literalist belief system that developed in Britain starting in at least the late 17th Century. It was the prophetic system he was exposed to when a young man associating with first Presbyterians and then Congregationalists. The pastor of his Congregational church was a student of prophecy, publishing a pamphlet on last times events and following the Literalist interpretive path.
The Separate Identity series examines this in great depth. As with all academic books, it's on the expensive side, but well worth the money. Full disclosure, one of the authors was my mom.
See the side panel on the history blog for links to the three books published thus far.
https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
The broader movement of which Russell-era Watch Tower was a part extended back to the early American Colonial Era. Again, see the above books. The research is superior.
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32
C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
Most of Johnson's books are in my uncle's research collection, and I've read many of them. Johnson was undeniably intelligent, but he was another self-anointed writer. That clouds his retelling of events. A self-anointed person (or a small group within the body of believers) with a special divine choosing characterizes what historians call Christian Mysticism. This is not spiritualism, but describes sects defined by a belief that one or a small set of their number have special divine appointment and guidance. Sound familiar?
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543
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen inhello my friends,.
here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.
revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).
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vienne
On a church reader board: "To the thief who stole our air conditioners: Keep one; it's hot where you're going.
And no, I don't really believe in a fiery hell.
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543
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen inhello my friends,.
here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.
revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).
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vienne
Speculating on Bible verses as K does is not exegesis. It's Eisegesis, It's what Jesus meant at Matthew 7:22f:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
As Josh Turner would have it, he's ridding the "long black train."
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543
Encouraging scriptures for the day
by Kosonen inhello my friends,.
here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.
revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).
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vienne
Quee,
How appropriate.
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C.T. Russell, Occultist
by metatron inone aspect of the watchtower's history that has never been.
adequately explained is russell's fascination with the occult.. the end of the 19th century saw the prominence of many occult.
were obsessed with egyptian symbols and magick based on the.
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vienne
I'm not, nor is any of my family, associated with Russellites. I'm a "budding" historian, still in university. I'll have my MA by mid June next. I honor ethics. Ethically, historians should write accurate history. What happens here most often is a repeat of claims that have no basis in fact. If one opposes the Witnesses, making false, misleading claims will weaken your argument. You will preach to the quire, but that has no real effect.
Do I think Russell was the faithful slave? No, the claim was a bit of wild imagination, and though he was careful to not make the claim in public, he believed it. One can find it, if memory serves, only one time from his pen and that in a 1909 Watch Tower article. Don't ask. I'm too busy to look it up.
The transcript of the Ross trial [The King vs. J. J. Ross] has this:
Q: Did you ever give out that you were "some great one?"
A: No Sir.
Q: Never did it?
A: No Sir.
Q: You were never the servant, never prophesied no time that you were the servant mentioned in the 24th of St. Matthew?
A: I never did, but some of my friends suggested that they believed that the Scripture in Matthew 24-25 was applicable to myself. I have never said it was, and I have never said it was not. I may have merely said I did not know whether it was or not.
This is not totally true. Schulz and de Vienne: Separate Identity, vol. 1 wrote:
Revisionists more contemporary to ourselves say that Russell never claimed to be the Faithful Servant. This is what our grandmother (Great Grandmother for one of us) would have called “hooie.” Russell believed that he was “chosen for his great work from before birth,” telling his associates that. If one rejects the testimony of his associates, including P. S. L. Johnson and C. Woodworth, one must provide solid reasons for doing so. We see no grounds upon which to reject their testimony. While most of this argument is best played out in Book Three of this series, we should note that Russell never corrected claims that he was “that servant.” Examples of “uncorrected” claims are found in various convention reports where he is frequently referred to as “that Servant.” Russell saw himself in this era as a divinely appointed teacher. Starting in 1895, he described himself as “God’s mouthpiece” first as a reference to the Millennial Dawn series which, of course he wrote; then as a direct reference to himself. The only other way he used this phrase was to refer to God’s prophets of old.
This paragraph is supported by the following footnotes:
55 The claim appears to have been first made by Horace Hollister within Russell’s lifetime. See: Cryptology of the Kingdom, St. Paul Enterprise, 1914, page 70. More recently it was made by a Watch Tower writer in God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached. Hollister testifies only to what he saw in print or heard. In point of fact, Russell makes the claim in 1909. We can add E. C. Henninges to the list of those who said Russell claimed to be the Faithful and Wise Servant. See The Watch Tower Confusion, New Covenant Advocate, April 1, 1927, page 5ff, where he presents proof.
56 Woodworth and Fisher: Finished Mystery, Watch Tower Society, Brooklyn, 1917, page 53.
57 C. T. Russell: Concerning Profitable Meetings, Zion’s Watch Tower, September 15, 1895, page 217; Harvest Gatherings and Siftings, July 15, 1906, page 229. One should note that in the original of the 1906 article (as first published in 1890) he used the phrase “the truths we present as God’s mouthpieces.” In the 1906 article he dropped the “we,” substituting “I” for it.
Russell printed the text of a letter addressed to him in the June 15, 1899, Watch Tower in which the writer referred to Russell as the faithful and wise servant. Russell printed it without demure. Again from Schulz and de Vienne (yes, that's my mother): "Two things are apparent here. Russell reproduced Randle’s circular letter without rebuke or demure. This puts the lie to revisionists who say he never claimed to be the Faithful and Wise Servant. That he let others make the claim without protesting shows that he did, in fact, see himself as the fulfillment of a last-times prophecy."
That's the history of the claim, in brief. It was and remains fanciful. We should note that the identification of Russell as the Laodicean Messenger did not come from Russell but from C. J.Woodworth's commentary on Revelation found in Finished Mystery.
Most of the unfounded, rather silly but still believed claims about Russell (and Rutherford) do not stand up under scrutiny. Repeating them does a disservice, and damages your arguments in opposition to Watchtower theology and practice. And most Witnessed do not care about their history, certainly not about events of a century ago. Do your due diligence, and research authoritative sources material before you post nonsense.
If one wishes to please gullible former adherents who seek anything to justify their leaving the faith, then by all means repeat every claim whether factual or not. Someone will be pleased by it and believe it uncritically. I don't see the need for justification. If you do not wish to remain a Witness, just leave. You do not need justification.