Posts by matt2414

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

mP:

You make some good points about the prevalence of same-sex behavior in Bible times, which is well documented. However, many uninformed people tend to equate that behavior with homosexuality. That couldn't be further from the truth. Many of the men in ancient times who practiced such same-sex behavior were married to women. Recent research has shown that less than 4% of the U.S. population is gay. But reports have shown that between 10%-13% of men who identify as straight admit to having occasional same-sex enounters. Yes, there are actually more straight people engaging in same-sex activity than gays! This may come as a surprise to many, but just peruse Craigslist and see how many straight or married individuals are seeking a same-sex encounter. This doesn't make them gay, anymore than if a gay person having heterosexual relations would be straight. Most men in prisons are straight and yet their same-sex activities are pretty well known. It's likely the percentages were similar in ancient times.

So when the OT says that men should "not lie with a man as one lies with a woman," to whom were these words actually directed? To straight men or gay men? And why are the words "men who lie with men" almost always given in the context of worshipping false gods? Just read the surrounding verses and chapters and see. Until religious homophobes can answer these questions, they are being awfully presumptuous and really have no idea what they are talking about. The Governing Body is especially guilty of such ignorance and wrecklessness with the Bible because they claim to be God's anointed mouthpiece.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

mP, it does seem like many homophobes are homosexuals. But to qualify that statement, I believe most homosexuals who are homophobes are religious or have some perverse view of God. I think they are this way because A) they feel they have to prove themselves worthy to their god; B) they are afraid of being outed so they overemphasize their disdain toward gays; and C) they are self loathing because they know that they are secretly fantacizing or even practicing homosexual behavior, and are afraid of being exposed.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

Open Mind, that WT-apologist hat is more like a dunce cap. Many of those arguments don't hold water.

Gen. 3:17-18 does say that God "cursed the ground." But the context says: "Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field." Most bible scholars agree that this was referring to the land the first couple were living on. It would no longer easily produce a bounty for them; they would have to work very hard to get the ground to produce food. The Bible text has nothing to do with their physiology, much less sexuality.
Besides, if JW's even suggest that God's curse caused imperfection, they are admitting that God caused all the so-called sin that exists today -- murder, stealing, drunkenness, fornication, and in their minds, homosexuality. They would in effect be blaming God. Isn't that called blasphemy?
By the way, the many thousands of plants and animals around the world didn't participate in Adam's sin, yet, how come plants can be heterosexual and bisexual. Since the 1990's, we've also come to learn that there are hundreds -- and the list is getting longer -- of animals that exhibit both bisexual and homosexual behavior. Who's responsible for this? The Watchtower and Awake! frequently praises the amazing design of these creations. Everything they do, even if done instinctively, is because of "Jehovah's design." It would be the height of hyprocrisy for them to backtrack now and say that God is not responsible for their actions. If God did create animals with the ability to enjoy same-sex unions, that would mean he created homosexuality. Is it much of a leap that he would create the same ability in humans?
It's true, "God made booze and sex for humans to enjoy, per the Bible." However, there is a big difference between booze and sex. God put in humans -- all animals, really -- the strong need and desire for air, food, water and sex. As humans, we need all of them to survive or we will die off as a species. To varying degrees, our bodies will fight us to have these needs satisfied. Yes, some of us may enjoy alcohol, but nowhere does the Bible say alcohol is necessary for the human race to survive. Some people may crave it, much like others may crave chocolate, but those desires are just that, cravings. To compare the desire for sex with the craving for alcohol reveals a the gross ignorance and stupity on the part of the Witnesses' Governing Body.
And if gays are taking sexual "desires and twisting them so that they are no longer acceptable to God," then why didn't Jesus come right out and say it, "Homosexuality is not acceptable to God"? Nowhere does he say it or even hint that homosexuality is wrong. When he mentioned Sodom he instead said, "Remember the wife of Lot." Was she a lesbian? There's no indication that she was. Sure, there may not have been a word for homosexual in the Bible languages, but it was quite well known and practiced among both the Greeks and Romans. Even Emporor Nero is said to have married men, twice. So why didn't Jesus address the matter if it was so common? He instead said, at John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

People born now are 6,000 years away from Adamic "perfection". Therefore we have people with a predisposition towards homosexuality and those who are susceptible to alcoholism.

This teaching of the Watchtower is nothing but a steaming pile of hooey. It is so flawed, I don't even know where to begin.

If God is perfect, and his creation of man and all life was "very good," how did homosexuality and all the other so called flaws enter the human race so quickly? Humans have made things that have lasted centuries, if not thousands of years, (think of the pyramids of Egypt) without any radical changes and flaws. So why did human life degrade so quickly, in just a few generations? Adam may have sinned but there's no evidence he tampered with human genetics. Even if God did remove his holy spirit from Adam, things shouldn't just fall apart, especially so quickly.
The idea that we have become more damaged or we've changed because we are 6,000 years away from Adam's perfection is really an admission that we have evolved! Humans have evolved to the point that we now have same-sex relationships that can be happy and wholesome, while not adding unnecesarily to out-of-control population growth. Isn't the Governing Body's argument about being 6,000 years away from Adam really admitting that evolution does exist?
Comparing homosexuality to alcoholism is also flawed. There is no scriptural basis for believing that God created in humans a desire for alcohol or alcohol dependency. However, the Bible does indicate that the human desire for love, companionship and even sex are God-given. Why would he give homosexuals these strong, innate desires and then expect them not to fulfill them, especially when 95%+ of the humans around them ARE satisfying them? What kind of loving God would do something so hateful?

The Witnesses like to boast that they survived the atrocities of Hitler. They often forget to mention that homosexuals were also in Hitler's concentration camps, alongside the Jews. During World War II, the Nazi Party tried to purge homosexuals and homosexuality from Germany. As we now know, he failed. So why do the Witnesses continue with Hitler's crusade by trying eradicate homosexuals from their organization? Would a loving God, especially one who is concerned about his name, even want to be associated with such an organization?

By their myriad reprehensible actions, the Governing Body and those who goose step with them demonstrate that they are deserving of Hitler's fate. Perhaps one day, they will merely be a footnote in history.

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

The remaining question presents itself, how does something that is genetically created in humans become something that is recognized to be a sin?

Why not blindness, mental retardation and all the other genetic abnormalities that does occur in human procreation?

Finkestein, those are good questions. But actually, it's not much different from the way lepers were treated in Bible times. Through no fault of their own, lepers were treated as outcasts, less than human, but that obviously was not what God had intended. What about the way blacks have been treated by people who thought they were following the Bible? And don't even get me started on the way women have been and continue to be treated? All people who had no choice as to how they were born. Would a loving God really be this inhumane and heartless? Aren't the real sinners those who try to "lord it over" others, subverting God's authority?

76

Are homosexuals born that way? The March 15 Watchtower seems to say so.

by matt2414 in

15 one brother who was raised in a christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies.

he said: i always felt awkward.

it seemed that i didnt fit in anywhere.

matt2414

15 One brother who was raised in a Christian household wrote that for as long as he could remember, he struggled with homosexual tendencies. He said: “I always felt awkward. It seemed that I didn’t fit in anywhere.” By age 20, he had become a regular pioneer and was a ministerial servant in the congregation. Then he stumbled badly, was Scripturally disciplined, and received help from the elders. By praying, studying God’s Word, and focusing on helping others, he picked himself up and resumed his spiritual pace. Years later, he admits: “At times I still have those feelings, but I don’t let them overtake me. I have learned that Jehovah will not let you be tempted beyond what you can handle." (WT 3/15/13 Page 6)

For years the Governing Body has been blaming homosexuality on environmental elements. Even the Young People Ask, Volume 2, book blames "permissive attitudes" and the way homosexuality is so "talked about" openly as causes for its spread. So how do they explain the above example where a brother was "raised in a Christian household" and struggled with homosexual tendencies "as long as he could remember"? Most Witness kids are rather isolated from the world, spending much time going to meetings and door-to-door proselytizing. So how did this guy "turn" gay, when there are so many "worldy" kids raised around gay culture who end up straight?

Isn't the Watchtower all but admitting that people are born gay? This guy felt that way "as long as he could remember." Most kids can remember back to age 3 or 4. That means he knew something was different about himself even before he could understand anything about sex and sexuality. And even with all the Witness indoctrination and mind control he says, "I still have those feelings." In other words, he is being made to detest and abhor the way God made him -- even though God made him so wonderfully (Psalm 139:14) -- so he can live the way the Governing Body wants him to. He has to live a lie, to accept their "truth."

16

Governing Body's Doctrinal Errors Vs. Jesus Apostles' so called errors under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

by I_love_Jeff in

if the apostles were guided by the holy spirit, how could they have made any doctrinal errors as mentioned by many jehovah's witnesses?

the governing body has admitted to making doctrinal errors and state that " you might as well condem jesus' apostles as well since they too had made errors.

i have read that the apostles had only made behavior mistakes not errors in doctrinal writings.. "the new testament makes it abundantly clear that doctrinal error can lead to eternal damnation.. didache is a noun found thirty times in the new testament to mean doctrine, teaching.

matt2414

One scripture the GB uses to support their mistakes is Acts 1:6 about the apostles: "So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"" The GB claims that the apostles made a mistake in believing, after having been with Jesus for 3 1/2 years, that the kingdom was going to be established then and there on earth. Over the years they have used this text as permission to keep falsely claiming when the end will come. But they fail to recognize that the apostles were merely asking Jesus a question about the end, they weren't calling themselves God's mouthpiece and preaching their mistake as new light, while threatening to shun anyone who disagreed with them. The GB fails to consider the next verse at Acts 1:7: "[God] said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

12

Are there any Gilead or MTS graduates on this site? What helped you to see the light and leave?

by matt2414 in

i was a faithful witness for years, even graduating from the ministerial training school.

so much of what i learned at the school has already changed.

if that was food at the proper time and, according to the latest teachings of the governing body, is now all wrong -- basically lies -- was it really spritual food from god?

matt2414

Cedars, I sent you a PM.

12

Are there any Gilead or MTS graduates on this site? What helped you to see the light and leave?

by matt2414 in

i was a faithful witness for years, even graduating from the ministerial training school.

so much of what i learned at the school has already changed.

if that was food at the proper time and, according to the latest teachings of the governing body, is now all wrong -- basically lies -- was it really spritual food from god?

matt2414

I was a faithful Witness for years, even graduating from the Ministerial Training School. So much of what I learned at the school has already changed. If that was food at the proper time and, according to the latest teachings of the Governing Body, is now all wrong -- basically lies -- was it really spritual food from God? Wouldn't that make it spritual junk food, even garbage? Paul wrote, "Let God be true and every man a liar" at Romans 3:4, so those teachings about the time of the end, 1914, the gentile times, generations, who the "faithful and discreet slave" is, who the Governing Body is, instructions on disfellowshippings, and so many other teachings that have been changed since I attended the MTS, couldn't have come from God because he would never feed us lies. According to Paul, the leaders of the Watchtower were and are liars because they are mere men, not God, who doesn't make such mistakes.

Yes, everyone errs once in a while, but at the rate the GB comes out with"new light," well, it's basically a stready stream of lies. Opening my eyes and coming to realize this was my turning point. It's as if God whispered in my ear to wake up, and all of a sudden everything was so crystal clear. This providential enlightenment also led me to the self-realization that I am gay, something I kept hidden and under wraps with all the lies from the Watchtower, which I piled on top with other lies I told myself to convince myself that I was straight so that God wouldn't murder me at Armageddon.

Is there anyone else who was in special full-time service that had a similar wake-up call? What opened your eyes? I'd be interested in hearing your story.

40

I Used To Hate Gays!

by DubR in

i remember i use to have a lot of hate in my heart when i was a jw.

i remember i used to hate gay people a lot!

when news reports came in about gays getting jumped in parks at night or killed.i would always smile inside.

matt2414

DubR: Thank you so much for your kind words and expressions of enlightenment about gays.

Drewcoul: I realize it's hard to understand how a man can be attracted to another man, but ask yourself, How can a man be attracted to a woman? Think about it. As kids, boys don't want anything to do with girls. Boys and girls, men and women have very little in common, basically being raised in different cultures -- thus, the expression "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars." Yet at some point during puberty, most develop an attraction to the other. The truth is, humans have very little control over whom we are attracted to. In tests, blindfolded straight men have become arroused after sniffing samples of women's pheromones, but feel nothing when sniffing the pheromones of men, even though they didn't know which was which. On the other hand, gay men felt nothing when sniffing pheromones of women, but became aroused with sniffing those of other men. They didn't choose to become aroused, gays, like straights, are just hard-wired that way, it was out of their control. Gay people accept the sexual relationships of opposite-sex couples because that is what we are exposed to and it's not considered taboo. We don't fantasize or obsess over the sexual activities of straight people. Gay people look forward to the day when homophobes stop obsessing over the sexual activities of homosexuals, and focus instead on the love and companionship such relationships provide.

mamochan13: You state that as a JW, you believed it was possible to cure gays. After all, you say, "the Bible says 'that's what some of you were.'" That text in 1 Corinthians chapter 6 has always confused me. It uses nouns when stating that fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, greedy persons, drunkards, revilers, extortioners would not inherit God’s kingdom. But instead of saying "homosexuals," it merely says "men who lie with men." The Governing Body uses the weak excuse that there was no word for homosexual in Greek in Paul's time. But Bible writers have been known to coin words or in the very least use words from other languages when necessary to explain themselves. So why is this an issue? Because that would mean he wasn't just directing his words to homosexuals. Recent and more accurate studies reveal that 3.5 percent of Americans are gay and lesbian. However, 10 percent of straight Americans admit they have had sexual relations with others of the same sex. This is probably similar in most other countries as well. In other words, there are more straight -- and often married -- people who are having same-sex relations than gays and lesbians. So was Paul speaking to gays or straights in 1 Cor. 6? This is important to know because you can't apply Paul's words in our time if you don't even know what or to whom he was referring to originally.