Norm

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Posts by Norm

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  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hello there frankiespeakin You said: Norm, I know you know the answer to your question and your question was not directed to me. But I would like to answer it anyway. Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer? It's like pulling teeth with you guys here. If the chrisitans on this board answer your question truthfully,,then it makes their God very petty,,it also reflects a jugdementalism inherent in "biblical" christianity. And so admitting to this exclusive nature of "biblical" christianity opens up a can of worms for them which is not polictically correct for this discussion group. I am afraid you are on to something there. It is really sad but it certainly is a good indication of the level of honesty and credibilty. I saw a lot of this verbal contortionism when debating with JW's. I would have thought they at least had learned a little from their stint in the WTS, but here they are repeating the same things over again. Why is it that truth, honesty and reality becomes so dangerous to religious people? Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hi LittleToe

  You said:

  Norm:There is no "true" religion.
  Is my stance clearer?

  Indeed it is, as far as you personally are concerned. But what I asked you was what is the Biblical psosition?
  Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer?
  It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.

  Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Sabrina,
  
  You totally avoided to answer my question. Here it is again:
  
  Do you really claim that Christendom (the Bible) isn't making the claim to be the only true religion in the world? If it isn't, why then did Jesus send out missionaries to convert everybody to Christendom?"

  Why can't you answer this simple question Sabrina?

  Then you said:

  "totally disagree with the perspective you present here. The reason being that it takes no account of the actual message that the biblical Jesus presented. If he had said go out and preach a doctrine of intolerance, then you might have a point, but I'm sorry - I just dont read it that way."

  If your future life is dependent upon if you accept the gospel. Say if you refuse to accept it what would happen to you then, Sabrina? Would Jesus say, "aw that's allright, your religion is as good as mine"? Or will it be something like this?

  "...the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.(2 Thess. 1:6-8)"
  
  (2 Peter 3:8-9) . . .. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
  
  Then you said:

  "Jesus sent out missionaries to convert everybody? No, Norm he did not. Jesus fully recognized there would be those who would love others and do good but not be his spiritual brothers and he called them righteous. Matthew 25:31, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And he will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right had, 'Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took me in; I was naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you visited me; I was in prison and you came to me.
  
  "Then the righteous will answer him saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink: When did we see you a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

  Instead of answering my question you are trying to get away by focusing on the word "everybody", not a very honest way of discussing. Again you seem to surgically avoid what I asked you. It goes without saying that not everybody would accept the gospel. But the crusial point is, what would happen to those who refuse Sabrina?
  
  Why didn't you include the very next verse which goes like this?:
  
  "(Matthew 25:41-46) 41 Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ?Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.? 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ?Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?? 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ?Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.? 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."
  
  If Christendom isn't the only true religion on earth, why should those who didn't accept Jesus
  be sucjected to such harsh treatment? I will be interested to hear the explanantion from you Sabrina.
  
  Then you said:

  "Jesus continually taught that love was the primary requirement and gave the illustration of the Good Samaritan as an example of neighborly love. The sheep in Matthew 25 are not Christ's brothers but they are good people. Certainly, like most good people they did good to others on the basis that it was the right thing to do just like the Good Samaritan did. When they did good to Christ's brothers they did not know they were his brothers because if they had they would not have had to ask Jesus what he was talking about. But they did ask because they are simply good people who have helped others and unknowingly also helped Christ's brothers. Their good heart is not forgotten by the Christ, their good deeds are recognized and rewarded. There are good people in every religion."

  Yes indeed, but Jesus love didn't extend to those who didn't "accept" him. Why? Because he had the only "truth"and if you didn't accept that, you were bound for "everlasting cutting-off"
  
  Then you said:

  "As for Jesus claiming to point the way, the only way; yes, of course he did. But many who have in the past (and today) claimed to be his followers have in reality trampled upon his words and have piled up heaps of reproach upon his name with their filthy unloving ways and practices. It is a great mistake to believe all Christian religionists represent the Christ. They do not! Jesus must be allowed to represent himself, he spoke for himself and his words must be allowed to stand or fall on their own not through the words and actions of others."

  I agree, and what happened to those who didn't follow that only"way"?

  Then you said:

  "As for respecting other religions I think it should be rephrased to respecting other people no matter what their religion. Jesus did not limit his help to only Jews, he aided others outside of his faith also. Jesus stood for love of God and neighbor not for the zenophobic practices of the Jewish leaders of his day. Unfortunately, today, that same kind poison is still spreading throughout world."

  I must say that I have rarely seen a better example of selctive Bible reading, several of you seem to be extremely picky about which Bible texts to "believe in" and which to ignore. Well, there is nothing new with that. Creating one's own version of a religion based on some selected Bible texts is understandable. I understand fully well all that you don't want to deal with the bigotted nasty, arrogant parts of scripture. But they are there. When it comes to you Sabrina, you seem to have a particular talent for avoiding them.

  Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hi Little Toe,

  You said:

  " totally disagree with the perspective you present here. The reason being that it takes no account of the actual message that the biblical Jesus presented. If he had said go out and preach a doctrine of intolerance, then you might have a point, but I'm sorry - I just dont read it that way."

  Well, what you and some others seem to miss completely or don't want to recognize is that when you delaclare to have the only true religion in the world, it automatically becomes a doctrine of intolerance! This is quite simple if you just give it a little thought.

  If you think that Christendom ins't the only true religion then please tell me. Because if it isn't, then what's the use of preaching and converting people, when they are served well with
  whatever religion they alrady got?

  Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  deleted
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hello Sabrina,

  Thanks for taking time to put your thoughts about these things up in your post.

  You said this:

  "This is not true. You paint with a broad brush Norm because you want to not because it's true.
  Tolerance and acceptance of another's religious beliefs is very alive in Christianity, as you
  must know. Christianity includes many diverse churches and cultures. Christianity is not homogeneous,
  it cannot be put in a box and labeled as easily as you have tried. There are many Christian faiths
  and churches and Christian individuals involved in inter-faith work, respecting the beliefs of
  their religious partners, their fellow worshippers of God who worship in their own non-Christian
  tradition".

  You seem to misunderstand here, the diversity of Christian churches and Christian sects isn't the
  issue. We are talking about the claims the Bible make on behalf of the religion it promotes.
  There is only one Bible Sabrina, how different churches, and you interpret it doesn't take away
  what is written there.

  Let me try again. First of all, and I will try to make this as clear as possible.
  Do you really claim that Christendom (the Bible) isn't making the claim to be the only true religion
  in the world? If it isn't, why then did Jesus send out missionaries to convert everybody to
  Christendom?"

  I ask because you seem to be of the opinion it isn't.

  Now to the next matter related to the above. If Christendom do indeed make the claim to be
  the only true religion in the world, it is simply impossible for it to respect other religions.
  All other religions automatically becomes false when you make that claim, and thus those religions
  is a tool of Satan.

  You see Sabrina, you can't have it both ways. All true Christians naturally have an abhorrence and
  loathing of false religion, just read the Bible.

  Looking forward to your answer.

  Happy new year.

  Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hello Greenpalmtreestillmine

  Wow! Must have hit a nerve there huh?

  You said:

  "To throw everyone together and claim Christians are some big bad bogeyman is childish. It is not balanced and not the truth. As soon as someone starts talking in an "us verses them"manner and making blanket statements about large groups of people they reveal their true intent. Which is not to speak the truth but rather to manipulate. Very sad indeed."

  Unfortunately I can't be responsible for your reading skills dear. But I recommend that you read what I said one more time, then sit down and make a well thought out post
  where you might try to point out to me what isn't true and why it isn't. Try to spot and identify the alleged "blanket statement".
  One of the big problems with the Christian religion is exactly the "us versus them". Manipulating I leave wholly up to religious organizations who are the professionals there.

  Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hi Satanus

  The Christian religion is in its very core a force for division and conflict.
  That is its very nature. How so? You might ask. Let me elaborate.
  Jesus did tell his followers to go out and spread the "gospel" Chrsitians has, as
  we all know done that ever since.

  It is pretty obvious that when someone comes to you and tell you that you need to covert
  from whatever religion or not you happen to belong to at the moment, it is of course implied
  that your present faith is inferior to the Christian religion. Because in order to get approved
  by the only God in the universe which is the Christian one, you must convert. Only then will you
  have hope of eternal existence. History gives us many excellent examples of how harmful such
  activity has been.

  Belonging to the only "true" religion in the world also tend to bring with it a sense of being
  superior, and above people belonging to inferior "heathen" religions, not to speak of non-believers.
  With such attitudes followsarrogance and discrimination. Some countries actually outlaw missionary
  activities and proselytizing and punish conversion with death.
  That's of course quite deplorable from a democrativc and human right point of view, but it is real.
  In some cases Christian organizations seem to have the attitude
  that they can ignore such legislation in these countries and do as they want, thus bringing people
  into very dangerous situations.

  As long as Christendom has this very agressive and discriminatory nature built into it's very core,
  it will continue to be an instrument for hate, conflict, agression and discrimination.
  So it doesn't help that Christians as individuals appear to be nice, decent and tolerant,
  as long as their religion in fact isn't. By it's claim to be the only true religion, arrogance,
  intolerance and discrimination against all non Christians are simply an integrated part of
  the religion itself. Such an extreme attitude came with the ideology of Monotheism and can
  actually be called a kind of antireligion.

  Norm
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  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hi there a christian

  You said:
  
  "My belief that the Creator of our universe inspired the writing of the Bible is certainly
  not based on such a foolish argument. All believers I know have a faith that is built on
  what they consider to be strong evidence. For some, like myself, that evidence came to
  them as a result of long personal studies of both science and the Scriptures which
  convinced them that the Bible is inspired by God. Others have become convinced of
  that fact as a result of personal "miraculous experiences." Others' faith has been
  validated as a result of what they see as answered prayers or as God working in their lives.
  In any case, the faith of most Christians has resulted from what they see as strong evidence,
  not from circular arguments. Now, most likely if they were to discuss that "evidence" with you,
  you would not find it as convincing as they have. But I believe God gave each of them all the
  help they needed to firmly establish their faith in Him. He gave me what I needed.
  And I needed a lot. I hope someday He will give you all the evidence you need to put
  your faith in Him. But I don't believe the evidence God gives to most of us is "recyclable."
  For every child whom God adopts He adopts personally. That being the case, I doubt you will
  ever find all the evidence you need to put your faith in the God of the Bible on an
  Internet discussion board. However, maybe some here will plant some seeds in your heart
  and mind which God will later cause to grow."

  Well, I don't know what argument you base your faith in God having inspired the writing of
  the bible on, so I can't know if they appear sound. I do know however that if God actually is
  behind the shoddy, confusing and incoherent nonsense the Bible consist of, he must indeed be
  a very serious case of mental illness. We actually have the Bible which is a collection of books
  assembled by the Catholich Church a few hundred years after Jesus death. We also have a rather
  large collection of books that didn't make it into what became the Bible.But according to your
  line of reasoning God must have been behind the classification work then.Looking at those books
  that didn't "make it" some of them seem a bit more far fetched then the Bible, some less so.
  But they all have in common that they consist of the same incredible superstitious nonsense.

  Otherwise you seem to indicate that you will be unable to convince me or any other of you claims
  that the Bible is the inspired word of God. But yet you do make that claim in this discussuion forum
  and when you do that it is hardly a surprise that people want to know what you base that
  extraordinary claim upon, but after some discussion you now seem to tell us that you simply are unable
  to do that. If that's the case and that is actually what you say, you can hardly blame us for not
  accepting your claim simply because you say so. Indeed you make more, in my opninon quite strange
  claims above. It seems to indicate that it is God himself who approach us individually and "help" us
  gain faith, and moreover that these are so personal that they arent "recyclable" as you put it.

  Well, such an idea certainly relieves you and all Christians of the daunting task of convincing
  us non-believers of your extraordinary claim. And at the same time it makes this whole discussion
  pretty hopeless and uneccesary.

  As for finding "evidence" on an internet board, I strongly disagree with you, I have found lot's
  of evidence on such boards, as have millions of other people.thousands of JW's are now ex-JW's
  because of evidence they found on the Internet.

  Then you said:
  
  "The only "critical thinking" I have abandoned is the kind which is all too commonly
  displayed on this board. That is the kind of "critical thinking" which criticizes
  virtually every thought expressed by someone who expresses a belief in the God of the Bible."

  Indeed, but the problem is that this is exactly what critical thinking is. To be sceptical
  and critical of extraordinary claims.You do indeed make extraordinary claims, and when you are unable
  to tell us why we should accept them, you now indicate that you can't and that we just have to
  accept them just because you say so. What you actually say above is that you have abandoned
  critical thinking and that we must do the same in order to "believe", and that you actually
  resent having to explain or produce proof for your extraordinary claims. Well, you see
  this is not how it works in the real world.

  Norm
• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

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  Norm

  Hello again a christian

  Among other things you said:

  "Myself, I've taken enough abuse to last me for quite a while.
  
  Mike"

  I am sorry that you think that a discussion like this is abuse. I think it has been quite civil,
  actually. If you really do think that you have the answer to why we should all belive in the Bible
  as the "Word of God" you should really tell us why, simply give us good solid evidence for
  why we all should subscribe to your view. So far you haven't even been close. Alan has tried to
  reason with you in a rather simple and detailed way and showed you how some of the things you claim
  don't make any sense whatsoever.

  You see, this is why it is such an unforgiving task trying to make sense of something that doesn't
  really make any sense to begin with. The "ransome sacrifice" is but one of many.

  The God of the Bible isn't at all a nice, just or merciful entity. He is behind genocide, ethic
  cleansing and every indecency under the sun. If you are such a keen student of the Bible you already
  know that.

  You seem like a nice and gentle soul and I do commend you for not "waxing wroth" on us condemning
  us all for not agreeing with you. I for one would dearly love to belive, for someone to come along
  with real arguments, to really explain it all so we could all understand and be united with a good and
  benevolent God, not this bad tempered homicidal maniac the Bible tell us about.

  But so far you haven't come up with one single argument that has been the least bit convincing.
  We have heard most of it before, many times. I don't know what it is but nothing Bible apologists
  say seems to have much serious crtical thinking behind it, it usually boild down to the same cirtcular
  arguments. Like, "the Bible is the Word of God! How do you know? The Bible say so." Then something
  like, "the Bible is right. How? The Bible say so."

  It is really sad but in my experince the kind of "faith" demanded by various religions doesn't
  seem to coexist very well with any kind of thinking, the two are like oil and water, they don't mix.
  In order to stay a "believer" one has to abandon real critical thinking, as it is simply lethal to
  faith.

  Norm