Posts by Norm

9

The Da Vinci code

by sym in

hi there - has anything been discussed/announced on this book by the jw's - i know other religious groups have.

i kind of think it backs up some jw beliefs that the church is built on ideas formulated by rome and not christ but that also it undermines the very basis of all christianity as well - i just imagined it being the type of book the elders would tell you not to read.

i remember when i used to go, there where lots of things we should not read or become educated on.

Norm

Hi there,

You said:

"Let's not forget The DaVinci Code is a work of fiction. The front of the book lists the few things that are facts. The rest is fantasy. I laughed my head off when the history channel had the "Debunking DaVinci" documentary on....wow, debunking a work of fiction...big accomplishment."

I couldn't agree more. Imagine someone "debunking" Lord of the Rings. There is no Middle Earth!, Gondor doesn’t exist!" How silly.

Yet it is really hilarious what they find so offensive, Jesus was married and had children! How preposterous! Lies, lies, they scream. Yup, I mean it stand to reason and common logic that he walked on water, waked up dead people and performed all kinds of miracles, but I mean a guy getting married and having children? Come on, have you ever heard anything as absurd as that?

Norm

10

Does the wt literature support lying?

by Check_Your_Premises in

.

just a quick question.

i have heard it alluded to before that jw's think it is ok to omit, or to feign ignorance, or even lie when "theocratic warfare" is at stake.. if so, can you give citations of examples where they condone giving less than "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".

Norm

Considering their whole religion is a lie, I think we can safely say that the WT literature support lying. JW's can hardly open their mouths without lying. What is more the Bible do to. Lying is an old and honored Bible tradition. As with so many other things lying was only wrong when others did it. This the same all over the place. Just take a look at something I whipped up in my spare time back in the days when I still cared about this bullshit:
-----------------------------------------------------------

Stupidity, lies and cheating

In a post in another thread our friend aChristian talkes about ?apparent? contradictions, not bad considering the Bible is full of the most glaring contradictions all over the place, but they say that faith can move mountains. Anyway, let us take a look at one of the stories from the Bible, which demonstrate the twisted logic and completely relativistic ?morals? of God and his ?chosen heroes?. Take Abraham for instance.

*** Rbi8 Genesis 20:1-18 ***
20 Now Abraham moved camp from there to the land of the Neg'eb and took up dwelling between Ka'desh and Shur and residing as an alien at Ge'rar. 2 And Abraham repeated concerning Sarah his wife: ?She is my sister.?

As we can see Abraham is acting like a craven wimp, lying to save his coward skin while putting his wife at risk of being sexually assaulted by Abimelech. What an outstanding act of bravery and what a wonderful sign of his trust in God Then the story gets even weirder:

*** Rbi8 Genesis 20:1-18 *** With that A?bim'e?lech king of Ge'rar sent and took Sarah. 3 Afterward God came to A?bim'e?lech in a dream by night and said to him: ?Here you are as good as dead because of the woman whom you have taken, since she is owned by another owner as his wife.? 4 However, A?bim'e?lech had not gone near her. Hence he said: ?Jehovah, will you kill a nation that is really righteous? 5 Did not he say to me, ?She is my sister?? and she?did not she too say, ?He is my brother?? In the honesty of my heart and with innocency of my hands I have done this.? 6 At that the [true] God said to him in the dream: ?I too have known that in the honesty of your heart you have done this, and I was also holding you back from sinning against me. That is why I did not allow you to touch her. 7 But now return the man?s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will make supplication for you. So keep living. But if you are not returning her, know that you will positively die, you and all who are yours.?8 So A?bim'e?lech got up early in the morning and proceeded to call all his servants and to speak of all these things in their ears. And the men got very much afraid.

Instead of giving Abraham, the craven liar a stern reprimand, God is leaning on the innocent Abimelech, who is the victim of Abraham and his wife?s despicable trickery. Abimelech is rightfully upset about Abrahams dishonesty and expresses

*** Rbi8 Genesis 20:1-18 *** Then A?bim'e?lech called Abraham and said to him: ?What have you done to us, and what sin have I committed against you, in that you have brought upon me and my kingdom a great sin? Deeds that should not have been done you have done in connection with me.? 10 And A?bim'e?lech went on to say to Abraham: ?What did you have in view in that you have done this thing??

Abrahams lame excuse sounds like this:

Rbi8 Genesis 20:1-18 *** 11 To this Abraham said: ?It was because I said to myself, ?Doubtless there is no fear of God in this place, and they will certainly kill me because of my wife.? 12 And, besides, she is truly my sister, the daughter of my father, only not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And it came about that, when God caused me to wander from the house of my father, then I said to her, ?This is your loving-kindness which you may exercise toward me: At every place where we shall come say of me: ?He is my brother.??

Not much of an excuse, eh? He seem to rationalize that she is actually his half sister, same father but different mothers, and apparently this lie was Abraham?s and Sarah?s standard procedure when they encountered strangers. Talk about a courageous and upstanding patriach?

But this story is quite inexplicable for another reason too:

*** Rbi8 Genesis 20:1-18 *** 17 And Abraham began to make supplication to the [true] God; and God proceeded to heal A?bim'e?lech and his wife and his slave girls, and they began bearing children. 18 For Jehovah had tightly shut up every womb of the house of A?bim'e?lech because of Sarah, Abraham?s wife.

One wonders what kind of twisted and insane reasoning is behind God?s punishment of an innocent man, for being tricked by the coward and lying ?Great Prophet? Abraham.

We know that Abraham had used the same stupid subterfuge before in Egypt:

*** Rbi8 Genesis 12:10-20 ***
10 Now a famine arose in the land and A'bram made his way down toward Egypt to reside there as an alien, because the famine was severe in the land. 11 And it came about that as soon as he got near to entering Egypt, then he said to Sar'ai his wife: ?Please, now! I well know you are a woman beautiful in appearance. 12 So it is bound to happen that the Egyptians will see you and will say, ?This is his wife.? And they will certainly kill me, but you they will preserve alive. 13 Please say you are my sister, in order that it may go well with me on your account, and my soul will be certain to live due to you.?
14 So it happened that, as soon as A'bram entered Egypt, the Egyptians got to see the woman, that she was very beautiful. 15 And the princes of Phar'aoh also got to see her and they began praising her to Phar'aoh, so that the woman was taken to the house of Phar'aoh. 16 And he treated A'bram well on her account, and he came to have sheep and cattle and asses and menservants and maidservants and she-asses and camels. 17 Then Jehovah touched Phar'aoh and his household with great plagues because of Sar'ai, A'bram?s wife. 18 With that Phar'aoh called A'bram and said: ?What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, ?She is my sister,? so that I was about to take her as my wife? And now here is your wife. Take her and go!? 20 And Phar'aoh issued commands to men concerning him, and they went escorting him and his wife and all that he had.

Of course God punished Pharaoh, which had been tricked into the whole mess. Not one word to the idiot Abraham that he should quit lying. What an example of outstanding moral discernment on behalf of God.

But this weird history doesn?t end here. Imagine, the Bible tell us that exactly the same thing happened again, this time with Abraham?s son Isaac:

*** Rbi8 Genesis 26:1-11 ***
26 Now there arose a famine in the land, besides the first famine that occurred in the days of Abraham, so that Isaac directed himself to A?bim'e?lech, king of the Phi?lis'tines, to Ge'rar. 2 Then Jehovah appeared to him and said: ?Do not go down to Egypt. Tabernacle in the land that I designate to you. 3 Reside as an alien in this land, and I shall continue with you and bless you, because to you and to your seed I shall give all these lands, and I will carry out the sworn statement that I swore to Abraham your father, 4 ?And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and I will give to your seed all these lands; and by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves,? 5 due to the fact that Abraham listened to my voice and continued to keep his obligations to me, my commands, my statutes, and my laws.? 6 So Isaac went on dwelling at Ge'rar.
7 Well, the men of the place kept asking with respect to his wife, and he would say: ?She is my sister.? For he was afraid to say ?My wife? for fear that, to quote him, ?the men of the place should kill me because of Re?bek'ah,? because she was attractive in appearance. 8 So it came about that as his days there extended themselves A?bim'e?lech, king of the Phi?lis'tines, was looking out of the window and taking in the sight, and there was Isaac having a good time with Re?bek'ah his wife. 9 At once A?bim'e?lech called Isaac and said: ?Why, she is no other than your wife! So how is it that you said, ?She is my sister??? At this Isaac said to him: ?I said it for fear I should die on her account.? 10 But A?bim'e?lech continued: ?What is this you have done to us? A little more and certainly one of the people would have lain down with your wife, and you would have brought guilt upon us!? 11 Then A?bim'e?lech commanded all the people, saying: ?Anybody touching this man and his wife will surely be put to death!?

As you can see Isaac apparently did just the same thing as his father with exactly the same people. One wonders what the Philistines were thinking about this family of pathological liars and cowards.

Norm.

15

Respect - what is it?

by Norm in

aretha franklin sings about respect and the word is frequently used in all languages.. the definition of the word can be : respect, esteem, regard -- (an attitude of admiration or esteem, held in esteem).

many people seem to think that respect automatically follows a position or office, like for instance a president, a bishop, a prime minister or similar lofty titles.

others hold that respect has to be earned and shouldn't be automatic and points to the often obvious fact that some people holding high offices often show themselves to be utter bastards and corrupt crooks that deserves no respect.

Norm

Hi Sabrina,

You said:

I think that while a religion or features of a religion may garner disrespect, there are individuals who do not practice the negative extremes of their religion. They rise above and practice the good found in their religion. In my opinion, these can be respected though disagreed with.

I agree with you, that's what I said this in my original post:

If we get to know a good and kind person, which earns our respect as a human being, s/he invariable is so in spite of his/hers religion, it is never ever because of it. We can only relate to each other in any meaningful way on a personal level and only on that level can we give each other respect. We can never truly respect a person's religious superstition, fantasies and more or less insane ideas about some imaginary invisible realm.

Norm

15

Respect - what is it?

by Norm in

aretha franklin sings about respect and the word is frequently used in all languages.. the definition of the word can be : respect, esteem, regard -- (an attitude of admiration or esteem, held in esteem).

many people seem to think that respect automatically follows a position or office, like for instance a president, a bishop, a prime minister or similar lofty titles.

others hold that respect has to be earned and shouldn't be automatic and points to the often obvious fact that some people holding high offices often show themselves to be utter bastards and corrupt crooks that deserves no respect.

Norm

You said,

always remember my granmother's words, "Never make fun of people in a derogatory manner, it will come back to haunt you."

Respect to me is ALLOWING you to believe that Donald Duck or Bugs Bunny is your God. I will NOT impose my views on others.

Respect means minding your own business.

Guest77

No one can hinder anyone believing whatever no matter how insane it might seem. The problem with any true believer is that he will indeed impose his faith (views) on you. Some times he will kill you if you don't convert. I do not respect any religion even when they manage their own business. Unfortunately they only mind their own business as long as they are in a minority, when they are in a majority, they will mind your business too, if you don't like it, you will suffer and die. I think your grandmother should have thought a little longer about it all.

If you don't challenge such "handed down wisdom" the world will never move on. Instead of passivly listening to complete drivel we must challenge it and ask the people who repeat all the age old nonsense to explain it all. They will soon discover that they can't, simply because it just don't make sense and then maybe they will actually start to think. If people hadn't challenged such beliefs we would still think the wold is flat.

Allowing people to wallow in superstition and fantasy without challenging them in a polite and nonconfrontational manner is showing that you don't care and that's disrespect in my book.

Norm

15

Respect - what is it?

by Norm in

aretha franklin sings about respect and the word is frequently used in all languages.. the definition of the word can be : respect, esteem, regard -- (an attitude of admiration or esteem, held in esteem).

many people seem to think that respect automatically follows a position or office, like for instance a president, a bishop, a prime minister or similar lofty titles.

others hold that respect has to be earned and shouldn't be automatic and points to the often obvious fact that some people holding high offices often show themselves to be utter bastards and corrupt crooks that deserves no respect.

Norm

Hi xena,

You said:

I will however, continue to believe in others' rights to believe in things they have found solace in along the way. If it works for them, let them have it. This road it tough enough.

Indeed, people have the right to believe in whatever they want, but I don't have to respect their belives. I see no reason to respect people who belive that they can have sex with 9 year old girls because their God somehow think it is a good idea.
I don't respect people who think they can dictate to others wheter they should accept blood components as a medical treatment either.

Norm

15

Respect - what is it?

by Norm in

aretha franklin sings about respect and the word is frequently used in all languages.. the definition of the word can be : respect, esteem, regard -- (an attitude of admiration or esteem, held in esteem).

many people seem to think that respect automatically follows a position or office, like for instance a president, a bishop, a prime minister or similar lofty titles.

others hold that respect has to be earned and shouldn't be automatic and points to the often obvious fact that some people holding high offices often show themselves to be utter bastards and corrupt crooks that deserves no respect.

Norm

Aretha Franklin sings about respect and the word is frequently used in all languages.
The definition of the word can be : respect, esteem, regard -- (an attitude of admiration or esteem, held in esteem). Many people seem to think that respect automatically follows a position or office, like for instance a President, a Bishop, a Prime Minister or similar lofty titles. Others hold that respect has to be earned and shouldn't be automatic and points to the often obvious fact that some people holding high offices often show themselves to be utter bastards and corrupt crooks that deserves no respect. Those on the automatic respect side then usually falls back to the argument that you have to respect the "office" even if it is currently occupied by a scoundrel.

It seems like the word respect means different things to different people and many don't seem to have any conscious idea of what it means but throws it around because they have heard others using it.

I would like to look at the use of this word in relation to religion. The recent Tsunami disaster in Asia did as usual in cases of tragedies of such magnitude cause the inevitable "God" question to the forefront. The more intelligent representatives of various religions was very quiet and didn't say much but mostly limited themselves to comforting people in a more general and noncommittal way. The people leaning towards more fundamentalist ideology made their usual endearing ideas of divine punishment for some kind of particularly sinful behavior on the part of the victims or even hinted that they had the wrong kind of faith. As usual they all had in common, the view that God is fantastic and what a marvelous thing faith is and how much comfort God gives all in their "hour of need." As usual it seems like God is only interested in helping and comforting people AFTER such a disaster, before it happened he appears to have been sleeping or had his attention elsewhere, perhaps monitoring peoples various use of their genitals, which judging from many religious leaders constant rants, seem to be his major interest.

Another and perhaps less known example of the complete lack of interest from this wonderful God is taking place in Ethiopia. In the paper New York times issue of May 16, 2003 there appeared an article with the title: "Alone and Ashamed". I quote:

"Dr. Catherine Hamlin, 79, is an Australian gynecologist who has spent the last 44 years in Addis Ababa, quietly toiling in impossible conditions to achieve the unimaginable. She has helped 24,000 women overcome obstetric fistulas, a condition almost unknown in the West but indescribably hideous for millions of sufferers in the poorest countries in the world.
It typically occurs when a teenage girl cannot deliver a baby because it is too big for her pelvis. After several days of labor without access to a doctor, the baby dies and the girl is left with a hole between her bladder, vagina and sometimes rectum. The result is that urine and sometimes feces drip constantly down her legs. In some cases, she is also left lame from nerve damage.
Women with fistulas stink and leave a trail of urine behind them. They are often abandoned by their husbands and driven out by other villagers."

I happened to see and interview with Dr Hamlin on some show on US television, where she was doing some fundraising to this extremely worthy cause. It all went well until someone started to bring God into the equation and as usual how people should pray for these unfortunate children and how God would help them. No one did of course ever breached the obvious subject that maybe God would best help these poor children if he could do something about the attitude of the deeply religious bastards that impregnates them. Maybe do something about the despicable religion that holds females to be mere property and regards children as legitimate sexual objects, a religion that is little more then institutionalized pedophilia. Speaking of pedophilia, in Iran, a female is considered a woman from the age of 9, as is the case in many Moslem countries. I think we can all imagine what might happen under such circumstances."

One thing is for certain though, God doesn't seem to be much concerned about such matters as they have been going on for thousands of years, but according to his devoted followers, he's quite fantastic with the victims, but alas only after the fact. Prevention of such incredibly evil and inhuman behavior seems to totally lacking in priority from Gods agenda.
Now of course most religions have some good sides, otherwise they would hopefully not exist, but are those good sides enough to balance out such horrible atrocities? I think not.
Do such religions deserve any respect? I think not. So what am I saying, shouldn't we respect peoples religion? No, we shouldn't. We should never respect any religion in any way. Do we respect the ideology of a Nazi? Well, most of us don't. That's because we have been educated to a large degree about the evils of that particular ideology. Religion seems to have been able to escape from such scrutiny and actually demand that all people should "respect" it just because it falls under the category of religion. So it has become a kind of mindless mantra that "we must respect" his, hers, their religion. No we must not, indeed we should not!

If we get to know a good and kind person, which earns our respect as a human being, s/he invariable is so in spite of his/hers religion, it is never ever because of it. We can only relate to each other in any meaningful way on a personal level and only on that level can we give each other respect. We can never truly respect a person's religious superstition, fantasies and more or less insane ideas about some imaginary invisible realm.

Norm

6

Love

by Norm in

jehovah's witnesses talk a lot about love.

of course such terms can mean different things to different people.

let us take a look at what it means to them.

Norm

Jehovah's Witnesses talk a lot about love. Of course such terms can mean different things to different people. Let us take a look at what it means to them. The Watchtower magazine regularly prints articles on the subject and the latest available on the Watchtower Library CD was published in 2003:

*** w03 7/1 p. 3 Love Is Indispensable ***
Love Is Indispensable
REGARDLESS of age, culture, language, or race, all humans have a hunger for love. If that hunger is not satisfied, they are not happy. A medical researcher wrote: "Love and intimacy are at a root of what makes us sick and what makes us well, what causes sadness and what brings happiness, what makes us suffer and what leads to healing.

Indeed it is. Who can disagree with this? But the Watchtower doesn't wait long until they try to derail the whole discussion:

*** w03 7/1 p. 3 Love Is Indispensable ***
Yet, modern society, especially its media and popular role models, often places more emphasis on wealth, power, fame, and sex than on the human need for warm, loving relationships. Many educators stress secular goals and careers, defining success primarily in those terms. True, education and the cultivation of one's talents are important, but should they be pursued so single-mindedly that one has no time for family and friends? An educated ancient writer who was an astute observer of human nature likened a gifted but loveless individual to "a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal." (1 Corinthians 13:1) Such people may become wealthy, even famous, but never truly happy.

Brooklyn never miss a chance to harp on how horrible it is to get an education, have a career and make something out of one's life. Somehow doing that is incompatible with "love" in their world. All who are presently Jehovah's Witnesses and all of us who has been Jehovah's Witnesses know very well that pursuing an education and career takes a lot of time, but we also know that being a faithful Jehovah's Witness attending all meetings, doing all the preaching work and everything else a Witness are supposed to do according to the Watchtower, is even more time consuming then anything else. We know that it leads to having even less time for one's family and friend's then people pursuing education and career. An Elders wife and children certainly don't see him much, and when they do he doesn't have much energy. So all that drivel about there are such an atmosphere of "love" in the Witness community is just pure nonsense. The only difference is that in addition to not being truly happy, many Jehovah's Witnesses aren't even wealthy but dirt poor.

Then the Watchtower continues:

*** w03 7/1 p. 3 Love Is Indispensable ***
Jesus Christ, who had a profound understanding of and a special fondness for humans, put love for God and neighbor at the very heart of his teaching. He said: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. . . . You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39) Only those who followed these words would truly be Jesus' followers. Hence, he said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."-John 13:35.
How, though, does one cultivate love in today's world? And how can parents teach love to their children? The following article will address these questions.

Some very ambiguous statements are made above. According to this you should love your neighbor and then Jesus followers should have love among themselves. As we all know our neighbors are quite rarely any disciples of Jesus. How far did Jesus love really extend? One thing is quite clear, it is far from any unconditional love. What kind of "love" is it that the Watchtower wants to "cultivate"? Let us try to find out.

*** w03 7/1 p. 4 How to Develop Genuine Love ***
Genuine love is more than just affection or sentiment. It consistently acts in the very best interests of others, even if they do not fully appreciate it at the time, which is often the case with children when loving discipline is involved. A perfect example of one who shows unselfish love is the Creator himself. The apostle Paul wrote: "My son, do not belittle the discipline from Jehovah, neither give out when you are corrected by him; for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines."-Hebrews 12:5, 6.

Already here the argumentation goes terribly wrong. The God of the Bible is so very far from an example of unselfish love as we can come, well for any kind of love really. And that is of course why the Watchtower doesn't bother to mention one example of this, but find it sufficient to merely make the unfounded claim. The quote from Paul about "disciplining" being equated with love is the gospel of power and control which haven't got much to do with genuine love.

*** w03 7/1 pp. 4-5 How to Develop Genuine Love ***
Teach Love by Example
If you are a husband, do you esteem, or set a high value on, your wife and treat her with honor and respect? If you are a wife, are you loving and supportive of your husband? The Bible says that husband and wife should love and respect each other. (Ephesians 5:28; Titus 2:4) When they do, their children see Christian love at work firsthand. What a powerful and valuable lesson that can be!
Parents also promote love in the home when they adhere to high standards for the family in regard to things like entertainment, morality, and goals and priorities. Worldwide, people have found the Bible to be a great help in setting such family standards, providing living evidence that the Bible truly "is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16) Indeed, the moral precepts and guidance for life found in just the Sermon on the Mount are widely considered to be unsurpassed.-Matthew, chapters 5 to 7.

Again we see a very shallow form of reasoning when the article just repeats old claims and clichés that ring hollower every time they are printed. What most Jehovah's Witness children do see from their parents is a hopeless power play, brought on by the Bible based macho culture where only those with a penis can decide anything. In marriages where you have a smart wife and a dumb husband this sometimes go spectacularly wrong. So children learn manipulation, hypocrisy, lying and deceit. In an environment completely inundated with detailed rules for everything isn't suited for anything even resembling love. Trust and freedom has to be present for genuine love to grow and thrive, and those are a rare commodity among Jehovah's Witnesses. The claim that the Bible is "beneficial" for anything good and moral is to say the least a very ambiguous and dubious claim.

*** w03 7/1 p. 5 How to Develop Genuine Love ***
When the whole family looks to God for guidance and adheres to his standards, each individual feels more secure and children are more likely to grow to love and respect their parents. Conversely, in a home with double, flawed, or loose standards, children may become exasperated, angry, and rebellious.-Romans 2:21; Colossians 3:21.

It certainly must be an extremely bad human being who can fail to be far better then the God of the Bible, most of us don't go in for genocide, ethnic cleansing and extreme favoritism, and we do not order wholesale slaughter of people who disagree with us. It is indeed extremely easy to surpass God's standards. We also know that there is a lot of Jehovah's Witness children who are "exasperated, angry, and rebellious", and we know very well why.

*** w03 7/1 p. 5 How to Develop Genuine Love ***
How All Can Cultivate Love
The Bible foretold that "the last days" would be marked by a lack of "natural affection," that is, a lack of the natural affinity that family members usually have for one another. (2 Timothy 3:1, 3) Yet, even those who may have grown up in an environment that lacked affection can learn to cultivate love. How? By learning from Jehovah, who is the very Source of love and who demonstrates love and affection to all who wholeheartedly turn to him. (1 John 4:7, 8) "In case my own father and my own mother did leave me, even Jehovah himself would take me up," said one psalmist.-Psalm 27:10.

Anyone with even the most superficial knowledge of the Bible knows that the above quote described the conditions that the writer could observe among his contemporaries. Anyone with half a brain knows that there has never been a time since the dawn of man that doesn't fit that description. It is just as meaningless as saying: "When the grass is green, the sky is blue and it rains, then we will know we live in the last days" As for the ludicrous babbling about "Jehovah, who is the very Source of love" it should suffice to look at recent events like 9/11 and the Tsunami disaster to realize how completely stupid and hollow such incredible nonsense is. Yet the Watchtower article continues this sickening, creeping, crawling, lickspittle, servile, toadying to "Jehovah" in a barrage of texts describing how wonderful he is:

*** w03 7/1 pp. 5-6 How to Develop Genuine Love ***
Inspired Fatherly Guidance
To cultivate a warm bond with someone, we must get to know that person well. By revealing himself through the pages of the Bible, Jehovah invites us to draw close to him. However, reading the Bible is not enough. We must apply its teachings and experience the benefits that result. (Psalm 19:7-10) "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk," says Isaiah 48:17. Yes, Jehovah, the very personification of love, instructs us for our benefit-not because he wants to restrict our freedom with needless rules and regulations.
An accurate knowledge of the Bible also helps us to grow in love for our fellow humans. This is because Bible truth teaches us God's view of humans and shows us the principles that should govern our dealings with one another. With such information, we have a solid basis for cultivating love of neighbor. The apostle Paul said: "This is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment."-Philippians 1:9.
To illustrate how love can be properly directed by "accurate knowledge," consider the fundamental truth stated at Acts 10:34, 35: "God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." If God assesses people by their righteous deeds and godly fear, not by their nationality or race, should we not view our fellowman with similar impartiality?-Acts 17:26, 27; 1 John 4:7-11, 20, 21.

Anyone who has read the Bible and actually has noticed what is printed there would feel more like loathing, nausea, abhorrence, aversion and disgust and would of course not feel any inclination whatsoever to "draw close" to such a revolting entity. The above quote reveals to what extent people who write such deceitful mendacious articles needs to close their minds to all reality and truth. Only, smoke, mirrors and fantasy will work in their twilight world. That's' what they try to pass on as "accurate knowledge" which turns out to be extremely inaccurate in the real world. Under no other circumstances do Jehovah's Witnesses demonstrate how extremely perverted their alleged "love" is as when it comes to their practice of "shunning". Such a practice require a kind of switch on/off love that can only exist in a perverse society. It is almost as perverted as the more universal Christian "love" that in the final analysis can only be extended to people who convert from other inferior, "false religions" to the only true religion, the religion of the elite, Christendom.

Norm

2

Prove yourself to be suckers!

by Norm in

the watchtower society has never been part for the innovative crowd, on the contrary they seem pretty unable to change much as time goes bye.

this should hardly be surprising as with most christian fundamentalists they have gotten stuck in biblical times, where they ricochet around between noah and the time of jesus.

mostly they seem to favor a society that is a mix of old and new testament rules randomly picked by the watchtower society and elevated to great importance at will, according to their immediate needs.. take for instance, the endless yammering and harping on how incredibly close the "jehovah's day" is.

Norm

The Watchtower Society has never been part for the innovative crowd, on the contrary they seem pretty unable to change much as time goes bye. This should hardly be surprising as with most Christian fundamentalists they have gotten stuck in Biblical times, where they ricochet around between Noah and the time of Jesus. Mostly they seem to favor a society that is a mix of old and New Testament rules randomly picked by the Watchtower Society and elevated to great importance at will, according to their immediate needs.

Take for instance, the endless yammering and harping on how incredibly close the "Jehovah's Day" is. If you open a Watchtower magazine from 1916 or 2003 this has never changed. One such article was regurgitated here:

*** w03 12/15 p. 19 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day
"Prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming."-MATTHEW 24:44.
IT WILL be a day of battle and fury, of anguish and distress, of darkness and desolation. Jehovah's "great and fear-inspiring day" is certain to come upon this wicked system of things, even as the Flood drowned the wicked world in Noah's day. There is no escaping it. Yet, "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe." (Joel 2:30-32; Amos 5:18-20) God will destroy his enemies and save his people. With a sense of urgency, the prophet Zephaniah declares: "The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much." (Zephaniah 1:14) When, though, will this divine judgment be executed?

When looking at the usual senseless litany of complete meaningless clichés and mind numbing drivel above, there are so many mental buttons that make a Witness mind go into drone mode, their eyes to gloss over and all conscious brain activity to cease. But the Watchtower isn't satisfied that they have killed all brain activities yet so they keep droning on:

*** w03 12/15 pp. 19-20 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
2 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father," said Jesus. (Matthew 24:36) Since we do not know the precise time, it is vital that we take to heart the words of our yeartext for 2004: "Keep on the watch . . . Prove yourselves ready."-Matthew 24:42, 44.
3 Indicating how suddenly those who are ready will be gathered to safety while others will be forsaken, Jesus said: "Two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned." (Matthew 24:40, 41) At that critical stage, what will be our personal situation? Will we be ready, or will that day catch us off guard? Much depends on the measures we take now. To prove ourselves ready for Jehovah's day requires that we avoid a certain attitude prevalent today, that we resist falling into a particular spiritual state, and that we shun certain life-styles.

Yup folks, we have no idea when, only God knows, so all the idiots have to be on their toes all the time. And then of course it seems to be quite random WHO will be among the "lucky" ones that will be "approved" of. Here the keyword is "abandoned". Someone will be abandoned folks, all the more reason to shut down your brains and just become even more senseless drones conforming to some insane rules that apparently will reduce the chances of being, gasp, abandoned. So at all cost the "faithful" need to "avoid a certain "attitude" to stay on the "right side". This abominable attitude can really be summed up quite easily; it is "having a life". Anyone wanting to live a normal life will of course be abandoned. Having a life is the absolute worst thing a devoted Jehovah's Witness can do.
There are many derogatory terms for such outrageous ideas; one of them will be used here:

*** w03 12/15 p. 20 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
Avoid a Complacent Attitude
Neither Noah's building project nor his preaching moved the people of his day to act. Why? Because they were "eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage." Those to whom Noah preached were so engrossed in personal affairs and pleasures that "they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away."-Matthew 24:38, 39.
5 It was the same in the days of Lot. The Scriptures tell us: "They were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. But on the day that Lot came out of Sodom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all." (Luke 17:28, 29) After angels warned Lot of the impending destruction, he spoke to his sons-in-law about what was coming. In their eyes, though, "he seemed like a man who was joking."-Genesis 19:14.

Imagine that, having a "complacent attitude" folks. Well, Noah allegedly didn't dilly dally when Jehovah filled him in on the future. But those who wanted to have a life were of course in for a nasty surprise. If it wasn't water it was sulphur. Now you have gotten the idea, Jehovah don't want you to have a life. He wants you to live in endless anxiety and fear of being exterminated by him for having the wrong attitudes and not having a "sense of urgency", because "Jehovah's Day" is as always imminent. So folks, being normal is in fact not an option for you true believers:

*** w03 12/15 p. 21 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
8 What if we realize that we are already involved in the normal day-to-day things of life to such an extent that spiritual interests are being crowded out? Is there little difference between our manner of life and that of our neighbors who lack accurate knowledge of the Scriptures and are not Kingdom proclaimers? If that is the case, then we need to make this a matter of prayer. Jehovah can enable us to have the right mental attitude. (Romans 15:5; Philippians 3:15) He can help us to keep Kingdom interests first, to do what is right, and to fulfill our obligation to him.-Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 13:7.

As you can see above the Watchtower actually points out that you can't live a normal life. So what can you do? Well, your only choice as a "true believer" is to become a complete zombie shutting out all normal activities and devote yourself to a life in perpetual anxiety waiting for "a day of battle and fury, of anguish and distress, of darkness and desolation. Jehovah's "great and fear-inspiring day". Doesn't it sound lovely? I mean who wouldn't prefer such a fantastic existence compared to enjoying life while you actually live? Nope, that's not for Jehovah's Witnesses, that would amount to "spiritual drowsiness":

*** w03 12/15 p. 21 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
Resist Spiritual Drowsiness
9 The very prophecy that speaks of the oncoming "war of the great day of God the Almighty" at Armageddon warns that some may not keep awake. "Look! I am coming as a thief," says the Lord Jesus Christ. "Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness." (Revelation 16:14-16) The outer garments mentioned here refer to what identifies us as Christian Witnesses of Jehovah. This includes our work as Kingdom proclaimers and our Christian conduct. If we slide into sleeplike inactivity, we may be stripped of our Christian identity. That is shameful and dangerous. We must resist falling into a state of spiritual drowsiness or lethargy. How can we resist such an inclination?

That's simple, ignore everything that's going on, go to all meetings and read only Watchtower literature, avoid absolutely all education and all thinking, stay as ignorant as possible about everything. That will surely do the trick.

As usual the Watchtower turns all this upside down. They claim that living a normal life getting an education and a decent job, is what will result in anxiety. Why should that bring any more anxiety then constantly worrying lest you piss off the bad tempered homicidal maniac Jehovah and be abandoned?

*** w03 12/15 p. 22 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
14 In his great prophecy about the sign of his presence, Jesus gave yet another warning. He said: "Pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man." (Luke 21:34-36) Jesus accurately described the life-styles that people in general pursue: overindulgence in food, drunkenness, and a way of life that brings anxieties.

So Jehovah's Witnesses doesn't "overindulge" in food and drink? Of course they do, they drink like camels, they have to do something to dull their senses, anxiety and fear of being abandoned. Don't Jehovah's Witnesses have to take care of their families, have a house, car, food, clothes, and simply provide for their families? Don't Jehovah's Witnesses have "personal concerns" like that? Of course, but reading the next quote it seems like they don't:

*** w03 12/15 p. 23 Prove Yourself Ready for Jehovah's Day ***
16 What are the anxieties of life that Jesus warned about? They involve personal concerns, providing for the family, and the like. How unwise to allow these to weigh us down! "Who of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his life span?" asked Jesus. He admonished his listeners: "Never be anxious and say, 'What are we to eat?' or, 'What are we to drink?' or, 'What are we to put on?' For all these are the things the nations are eagerly pursuing. For your heavenly Father knows you need all these things." Putting Kingdom interests first in our lives and having confidence that Jehovah will provide for us will keep anxieties at bay and help us stay awake.-Matthew 6:25-34.

What will happen if we don't care about what to eat, to drink and to put on? Is it good advise to ignore such basic things? We are not living in a society of nomad tribes, living in tents roaming vast areas. This is complete impractical nonsense. The average Jehovah's Witnesses is at least as "weighed down" with all this as anyone else, and in addition they have all the superstitious crap to deal with.

Did you notice the usual question at the end of the first quote. A question that the Watchtower Society love to ask, but NEVER answer, but always let drown in an endless torrent of meaningless drivel. It is this one: "When, though, will this divine judgment be executed?

Yes, indeed, when? They didn't say. I mean Soon isn't an answer. It is really sad that religious people are so desperately preoccupied with pursuing a life after death. All human beings should concentrate on having a life BEFORE death, because that's all they get.

Norm

149

Watchtower Observer site goes down

by Norm in

jw
friends

hey folks,.

an era in the ex-jw history is over.

kent steinhaug's site http://watchtower.observer.org is being shut down.. it was the first of it's kind, and to this day probably still the largest anti wt site on the net.

Norm

try this addy: [email protected]

149

Watchtower Observer site goes down

by Norm in

jw
friends

hey folks,.

an era in the ex-jw history is over.

kent steinhaug's site http://watchtower.observer.org is being shut down.. it was the first of it's kind, and to this day probably still the largest anti wt site on the net.

Norm

The domain isn't the problem, Kent is probably keeping the domain. It is the site itself.
It isn't a html based site.

Norm