Posts by OutsiderLookingIn

41

Toasting is Pagan - How many contradictions can fit in 2 pages, I found 5?

by jwfacts in

the watchtower 2007 feb 15 pp.30-31 explains why jehovah's witnesses are not to toast.

what is astounding is that for each point they then go on an explain why the point is irrelevant, yet still conclude toasting is wrong.

what did people think when reading this?

OutsiderLookingIn

That's interesting, One Eyed Joe. I didn't mean to diminish your experience by any means. Both reactions are definitely possible. As I'm learning, the Watchtower gets you coming and going. They have the true believers (in the GB) and the unsure but guilt ridden follow along. It's such a shame.

41

Toasting is Pagan - How many contradictions can fit in 2 pages, I found 5?

by jwfacts in

the watchtower 2007 feb 15 pp.30-31 explains why jehovah's witnesses are not to toast.

what is astounding is that for each point they then go on an explain why the point is irrelevant, yet still conclude toasting is wrong.

what did people think when reading this?

OutsiderLookingIn

Great OP and topic generally. As a never dub, the endless string of rules and contradictory reasoning is truly mind-numbing.

OneEyed Joe, I reach the same conclusion about the "difference" between wedding rings and toasting, but for the exact opposite reason. Everything JWs do is to raise their conspicuousness. It's all about how they can stand out. Wedding rings accomplish this goal. Marriage is still generally respected and respectable in our society. And as a single woman, I definitely notice a wedding ring lol. So a JW with a wedding ring and org pin (ugh) makes a statement without saying a word: I'm a JW and I believe in the sanctity of marriage (whether or not it's true).

As for not toasting, I think it is conspicuous in a small group (which is generally how toasts are made at a table...you try to clink glasses with everyone). If the one JW at the table abstains, someone might ask, why didn't you join in? Giving them an opportunity to give a witness (read: rain on everyone else's parade). I certainly think it's why JWs aren't permitted to celebrate holidays even non-religious ones. What better witness than to differentiate yourself multiple times a year for no good reason? But what's the one thing they are allowed to celebrate? Hmmm... Because JWs are so respectable It's just gross. The control is sickening.

34

Gas Pump "Witnessing"....Is this a thing?

by Bob Loblaw in

i've seen this twice now within a month.

a car group hanging out at a gas station.

one of the cult members jumps outs of their car and runs up to a "worldly" gas pumper, arm stretched out, tract in hand, and here comes the juvenile at best question.

OutsiderLookingIn

They could well just approach someone on the street, but they pick a spot where they know people can't talk for more than a few seconds. Basically, they really don't want to talk to anybody, the importance thing is to count hours and hand out litera-trash.

The whole cart concept is indicative that the Org itself is not very interested in JWs having conversations with people, lest any of them get challenged with logic.

So true. If you're interested and have the time, strike up a conversation on a controversial subject or doctrinal issue at the carts as politely as you can manage. I most recently did this when my train was delayed. After about 10 minutes of seeing I knew the Bible and could rebut his straw man arguments and realizing that the train wasn't going to save him, he tapped his partner to relocate. Mission accomplished!

26

Good idea or bad idea?

by stephanie61092 in

first and foremost, thank you so much to so many of you who have reached out to me over the past few days since my post on sunday.

i'm not totally in the best mental state, however, i do have a very small amount of people that i can lean on for support.

i relayed my feelings to a friend (my only friend, really), who took the initiative to inform my family.

OutsiderLookingIn

First of all, welcome!

Second, wow! Just wow! The hits just keep on coming with this man-made organization. As a general matter, I do believe that giving is a part of worship. But this is the most blatant money grab I've ever heard of. You said you only gave at assemblies and conventions. That was an offering from your heart (or guilt or whatever). But now they're suggesting you give to get reinstated? Absolutely not! Exactly where does the Bible say you can buy your way into the kingdom of God? God wants repentance from the heart. You can't buy Him off. This sounds just like the Catholic system of indulgences which I'm sure they'd be quick to condemn. Unbelievable!

18

Finding love as a witness

by RawrSaysTheLion in

hi i'm new.. i'm going on 2yrs as a baptized witness although i've just received a reproval on the grounds of living with a wordly man unmarried for 6 months.

long story short it ended messy and i ran straight back to the witnesses because i do love jehovah and i missed my family.

my issues were only with the actual organization.. i desperately want to find someone to share my world with but i feel like i'm too tainted to be loved by anyone worthy in the truth and my morals are to high to love another boy from the world.

OutsiderLookingIn

I often see this question (or some statement that JWs should date outside their small pool) and it strikes me as selfish and patently unfair to the unsuspecting non-JW on the other end. We don't know about all your rules and those that do wish we didn't.

I'm all for compatibility and finding your true love but quite honestly, there should be some qualifying test for JWs before they can date non-JWs:

1. Do you still believe JWs have "the truth"?

2. Do you secretly look down on or feel sorry for the person because he or she is not a JW?

3. Are you dating this person out of rebellion or youthful indiscretion and will kick him/her to the curb once you "grow out of it"?

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, please step away from the "worldly" person and let us be. Let us live out our sad, unfulfilled lives until we get killed at Armageddon

Newsflash: we're people too. We're looking for love and happiness, sometimes in the wrong places. We're well aware that there are bad apples out there but many of us learn discernment because we have to. We don't assume everyone is depraved, awful or immoral just because they're not a JW. We judge people as individuals.

As someone else said, the same problems that exist among JWs exist among non-JWs--you just don't make excuses for us.

If you don't feel comfortable doing something like living together or sex before marriage, don't do it. It's called boundaries. And most non-JWs have them. Stand up for what you believe. Just remember Watchtower rules don't equal morality; sometimes they just make you judgmental.

34

My boyfriend is thinking of becoming reinstated

by gypsyvine in

i'm not really sure where to post this.. i've been with my boyfriend for 4 months now and i've really never been happier.

i was brought up in the church of christ with an elder father and i really believe in my religion, although i will admit to being a lousy christian at times due to sheer laziness (not wanting to get out of bed on sunday).

my boyfriend essentially lives with me.

OutsiderLookingIn

Hi gypsyvine, welcome. I know where you're coming from, knowing little to nothing about JWs besides "they're nice people". Legalistic maybe but still nice. I'll PM you later, but here are a few initial thoughts--

First, be careful. Lazy Christians are just the low hanging fruit the WT is after for their carefully crafted and very selective presentation of the Bible. Know the Word for yourself. Also, it's very possible she's being nice to you for a reason: smiling face plus your love for her son equals more likely to convert.

As women, we're often led by our hearts so I'd say, get informed and slow down/stop the physicality. Not to be a prude but that really keeps emotions high. Ending that will help you to make a clearer headed decision. It will also let you see how willing he is to stick around.

Lastly, be firm. Reiterate that you'll never become a JW and have reasons to back it up (there are many). Otherwise, they might think they can wear you down over time. All the best!

475

What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother in

i mean this with all due respect, i would like to hear from genuine people who think jw have it wrong and then what is the truth?.

im not talking about silly little quibbles here and there.. is jehovah real?

the the bible is word?

OutsiderLookingIn

Outsider, we are in agreement about everything

I'll take this and run with it, Former Brother lol. Just kidding.

except from " there isn't one right answer about a place of worship." or all roads lead to God. I just cant see how it doesnt matter to God what you believe or who you follow.
It has to matter, there has to be one truth from the bible, not different truths many different interpretations that God is pleased with opposing beliefs?
If Jws are not correct, which I will possibly accept, then which option is the correct option that god is pleased with?
There has to be one truth, there cant be more than one option. There is no place in the Bible that indicates it doesnt matter if two followers of Jesus teachings have different beliefs about the bible, they are both correct. Think about it.
So again, which option is there if not JW's?
Mormons, maybe? One of the 30K so called Christian faiths? If so which one?

I didn't say all roads lead to God or that it doesn't matter what path you follow. The Christian faith is centered on Jesus being the only way to eternal life. As a disciple of Jesus, you follow Him. Not only do you follow Jesus, you abide in Him (John 15:4-5), not trying to "be good" on your own. What (or rather, who) is the truth? We agree that it's Jesus so an accurate understanding of Him and what He did for each of us is the key issue of salvation. Jesus died for all of us, not just 144,000. JWs teach that Jesus is Michael, based on flimsy "evidence". I could start a separate thread or PM you on how circular and closed-minded this reasoning is... Given the emphasis JWs place on God's name being Jehovah, how can they so fast and loose with the name of Jesus? The only name by which we may be saved? (Acts 4:10-12).

Now as to whether place or style of worship matters, there is certainly some allowance for cultural differences. There were no Kingdom Halls or physical buildings called churches. People met in houses and the individuals were the church (ekklesia- called out ones). I agree that the Bible sets forth moral principles which have not changed, but it also cautions not to be divisive on disputed matters (Romans 14:1-12). Yet judgment on disputed and insignificant matters is the Watchtower's bread and butter: cross vs. stake; anything with pagan roots is bad unless they can use it to their advantage (wedding rings, neckties, makeup). There are rules, rules, and more rules but absolutely no spiritual transformation (Colossians 2:16-23). At the same time, it hangs its hat on demonstrably false teachings...Where exactly does the Bible speak of close association with Christ's brothers as a path to salvation? What's more important in the grand scheme of things? The Watchtower obscures the path to Jesus and that's a huge problem. Without this basis, uniformity in worship does not matter.

What do you mean by opposing beliefs? The Watchtower hasn't been a beacon of consistency so I think you must mean something else. Can you give some examples?

68

Why would anyone choose to support Jehovah’s Witnesses?

by Half banana in

what is the point of supporting a belief which began as a bronze age ox-headed idol called yahweh... in a religion designed for illiterate peasants now appropriated by a money-driven cult with a one hundred and forty six year unbroken record of total failure of its bible based predictions?.

.

OutsiderLookingIn

DY, I hope this doesn't come across too harshly but that is one of the most infuriating assumptions JWs make about us mere worldlies. I've never been a JW and I like the simple, non-depraved pleasures of life too. Most people are just doing their best to make it. Not only is it judgmental, it's blatantly hypocritical. Before JWs, I thought wife swap was only a TV show. Not swingers, but so-called Christians do that in real life? I would never have thought it.

Drawing conclusions about people who outnumber you almost 100 to 1 based on your small sample is unfair and misguided. People are people whether you go. The problems with the Watchtower outweigh its virtue of making you a wholesome person, whatever that means. I understand you have your reasons for staying and that is your choice. But the world (as defined by the JWs) isn't out to get you. Although I do hope the Panthers show out on Sunday :)

475

What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother in

i mean this with all due respect, i would like to hear from genuine people who think jw have it wrong and then what is the truth?.

im not talking about silly little quibbles here and there.. is jehovah real?

the the bible is word?

OutsiderLookingIn

Former Brother, I believe God still cares and provides guidance through the Bible. In the age of literacy, I believe we're responsible for picking up that guidebook and knowing it for ourselves. As I said before, there are alternatives and there isn't one right answer about a place of worship. Contrary to what the Watchtower has said, the truth is not a religion, it's Jesus. His death and more important, His resurrection, save us. It's a gift and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). That said, since it might be hard to know where to begin, here are some concrete steps:

Step 1. Pray for guidance and clarity as you study the Bible.

Step 2. Read the Bible without WT filters, blinders or commentaries and use a non-NWT translation. NKJV, NIV and NLT are all readily available options. Read entire chapters and books. Start with the New Testament. I say this not because the Old Testament isn't important (after all, it's 2/3 of the Bible) but because I get the sense the Watchtower focuses almost exclusively on the rule based system of the Old Testament and minimizes the New Covenant through Christ.

Alternate with Step 1.

Step 3. Only after doing Steps 1 and 2 repeatedly, start visiting churches in your area. I don't know where you're located but in the US, there are many options. I've attended Baptist, Methodist and non-denominational churches. Listen to what they're saying. Even if the cited Scripture is on a screen, look it up for yourself or write it down for future reference.

At this point, you might have questions. Ask the pastor who should be willing to discuss or look into them for you. If not, that might be a sign that it's not the place for you. You should also know that even within the same denomination, you may have different experiences. Don't give up! Watchtower talks endurance but tells you to give up on anything outside its doors. Don't believe it. That's how they've kept you so far.

I don't know if you mentioned it, but what were your reasons for questioning the Watchtower (and sparking a multipage discussion)? :) Their doctrinal problems aren't going to change without losing its uniqueness from "Christendom". And love your neighbor, don't lie, and be a good citizen aren't doctrines. Was it whitewashing history or hypocrisy? Sorry, but they're digging in their heels and that's just how they roll.

Step 4. All while repeating Steps 1 and 2, shop around and be discerning. Finding a new place of worship won't happen overnight. Be patient with the process and with yourself. Nowhere is perfect because we're all imperfect but faithfulness to the Bible for the sake of Christian growth, not someone's agenda should be apparent. Take care. I really hope you find Christian freedom.

24

Exactly where is the expansion?

by NeverKnew in

jw
friends

there is a thread that i'm really enjoying discussing the consolidation of congregations into existing kingdom halls.

i'm realizing that the only threads that have spoken of building were related to branch offices.

we know the wts's consolidations and reopening a are a shell game of sorts but i'm wondering... is anyone seeing an increase in kingdom halls in their part of the world?

OutsiderLookingIn

Reporting from NYC. Caveat that I don't know what the landscape of Kingdom Halls was before, but I was speaking with a woman a few months ago and she told me about her "new" hall. I don't know if she meant new, as in newly constructed or they just happened to renovate it. But I do know that that it is in a poorer neighborhood of New York (yes, there are some). If it's actual new construction/purchase, I can still see how it works to the Watchtower's advantage to build in lower income areas-- 1) people are looking for a hope or are possibly less educated; and 2) the property values are a little cheaper (for now). I really hope it's just a revolving door and no actual growth, but I'm still very sad that some are still getting caught in this web.