I think it was a Mel Brooks movie - Moses is coming down the mountain carrying 3 big stone tablets, surrounded by an awe struck crowd, shouting "God has given us 15 commandment to live our life by". He stumbles at the bottom, and one of the tablets falls and shatters to bits. Everyone gasps and look around at each other. Then Moses stands back up and shouts "10. God has given us 10 commandments".
WireRider
JoinedPosts by WireRider
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11
Is there actually a valid Translation of the Bible ?
by Phizzy ini saw a vid on-line awhile ago, i cannot remember the title so can't find it, but the guy was some sort of expert in the languages of the bible, and he made a very good case that there has never been a proper translation of the bible.. what he was saying was that all translators fall into the same trap of an overly slavish use of the etymology of words rather than how language was actually used at the time of writing.. he said that what was needed were scholars who were familiar with secular contemporaneous writings, and knew how language was used at the time.. this looks like a very interesting argument.. any thoughts ?
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Is there actually a valid Translation of the Bible ?
by Phizzy ini saw a vid on-line awhile ago, i cannot remember the title so can't find it, but the guy was some sort of expert in the languages of the bible, and he made a very good case that there has never been a proper translation of the bible.. what he was saying was that all translators fall into the same trap of an overly slavish use of the etymology of words rather than how language was actually used at the time of writing.. he said that what was needed were scholars who were familiar with secular contemporaneous writings, and knew how language was used at the time.. this looks like a very interesting argument.. any thoughts ?
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WireRider
One thing to consider also, is where the scrolls came from. Many scrolls were not committed to paper for 100s to 1000s of years after the events took place. That's a lot of word-of-mouth passed down for a lot of generations. I don't recall any stories of which disciples were the designated stenographers or note takes. Not a lot of people running around with a pencil and a pad of paper to take notes. When the Bible has people "quoting" God or Jesus, how did that work, and how accurate could they be?
I have heard researchers claim that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not written until somewhere between 200-300 AD. They were written by others as if in the first person.
If finally written down after passing the stories down for several generations, or if the scrolls had been copied by hand several times, it's hard to overlook the impact of the writer person bias, or a religious groups bias. Ehhh - I think he probably really meant .. Or let's embellish that part a little so it sounds good. Or I think he would have said ..
So exact translations based on the language and/or era are really secondary. A perfectly translations means little if the original sources cannot be verified. Some may actually be completely fictional - they just seemed to fir the narrative of the Bible and were thrown in there.
On the flip side, there were very factual gospels, that didn't make the cut because the Council of Nicaea's opinion of what the overall narrative should be.
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Taking bets on how long this cult will last and what will happen to it
by macys ini wanna make a poll here.
how many years do you think the jdub cult will exist as is and what will happen to it?.
i say the growth stops this year and starts to decline.
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WireRider
I think the trend of losing members will be more of an exponential rate than linear. For many of the reasons discussed here all coming together.
As I understand is the Watchtower has three sources of income. As Publishing Company - that is seems they make more money from the congregations than anyone. as a Cult keeping the herd in blinders and controlling what they think and away from truth - but give them free money. As free slave labor to work for the Publishing Company and very hard free slave labor for the Cult to get more members - judged on time slips?
Really? I always thought God would know. Why does God need with time slips? (Reminds me of one of the early Star Trek movies "what DOES God need with a starship")
The real change is societal change around them. It's not the 1930's any more - you can no longer manage the herd the way they used to. The rate of information is exponential. In 1930 you could never learn of the WT history - now you can't avoid it. Their ability to control people is constantly slipping from them.
A long history of forbidding secondary education - so you don't get smart enough to think for yourself and leave. Just doesn't work in modern day society.
The increasing drop in membership will hurt them financially in increasing way. But they do have enough real estate to sell off for years.
I do like the aging-out statements. As more are leaving, or passing away, it will continue to break the generational chain in a snowball way. Something they have counted on for growth for 100 years. No work - the herd will multiply. No longer a projected growth and they know it.
Religion as a whole has been on a decline for years, and they will probably get hit hardest.
Overall, they have to know due to probably a dozen discrete factors, the numbers will drop precipitously. It all hits the life blood of the WT - their income/money.
I think they should move the head quarters to a 3rd world country. Where it is still the 1930's - where they thrive with no information available except what the WT tells them to believe. No secondary education either. Of course they have no money to leach from like the US.
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Executed Jehovah's Witness under Hitler were more Christian than Jdubs
by suavojr inhas anyone noticed how the phraseology of this letter is so far away from todays jw theology and idioms used?
do you notice what word is missing?
how would any of us be viewed in the congregations if we were to speak or write this way?
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WireRider
You can't overlook the fact that Rutherford was sending fan letters to Hitler, in perfect agreement to hate Jews. (google the actual copies)
Rutherford truly threw German JWs under the bus. Sucking up to Hitler. He was jealous of Hitler's control over people. Especially the Nazi youth program, where even kids were so fanatical they would turn over their own parents for anything wrong. Any wonder where Rutherford got his JW brainwashing ideas of propagandizing people into submission? Control. Control. Control.
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Executed Jehovah's Witness under Hitler were more Christian than Jdubs
by suavojr inhas anyone noticed how the phraseology of this letter is so far away from todays jw theology and idioms used?
do you notice what word is missing?
how would any of us be viewed in the congregations if we were to speak or write this way?
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WireRider
My JW girlfriend pointed to this issue. She said see the Holocaust Museum. JW's were persecuted by the Nazi. Yes, many people of ALL faith's were arrested for one thing or another.
The JW were arrested for being subversive to the Nazi plans. They were conscientious objectors and refused to support the Nazi. Unfortunately about 1,500 died under poor detention conditions. Only 250 JW were actually executed. Arrested JW prisoners were offered a half page letter to sign promising their support of the Nazi - and they could leave. Go home. Flee the country what ever. (The argument being just sign their letter and leave. God would know what is really in your heart. Just sign it and leave - live.)
I really pales in comparison to 6,000,000+ Jews who never had a chance and were executed just because they were Jews. There would have been many many more if we didn't intervene.
A plaque is nice. How about 6,000,000 more for those that never had a chance.
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Did Jesus really die on a cross?
by macys inbeing raised a catholic we had lots of crosses around the house.
when my family converted to this cult they were all removed and destroyed in case they had demons in them lol but at this juncture in my life i do not even know if jesus as the way he is portrayed in the bible was real.
yes a man named jesus did live and die 2000 years ago and probably on a cross but he was definitely not the son of god.
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WireRider
Silly debate. It doesn't really matter. It misses the point. Jesus was put to death at a pivotal point. Does it really matter at all what shape the wood thing was?
There is no proof either way. Hand-me-down stories for 300 yrs and all the translations do not matter.
I hear a lot about what was historically typical of the times. Yes, but that refers to common thieves and criminals and every day executions. They made an extra effort to make a point of displaying Jesus sentence of death. I would think they would have gone all out for the extra cross. Of course there where eye witnesses that passed down for 2000 years of the cross. Not some knuckle head from from 100 yrs ago who claim 2000 years where wrong based on a bad translation. Russell did not even know Hebrew, Latin, or Greek.
My biggest religious conundrum .... was it boxers or briefs. Does it matter?
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I'm Catholic and madly in love with a Jehovah Witness...
by Luge62 inwe are madly in love with each other and she is in the process of being divorced.
let me make one thing clear i'm not the reason for the divorce.
she attempted to reconcile with him but to no avail.
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WireRider
I am still trying to get over the exact same issue. It did not end well.
We were together for two years, and engaged for 24hrs. Her family found out and she was emotionally tackled by her whole family and all JW. I could tell from remaining phone calls that she had been relentlessly lectured. I called one day, and completely out of the blue, said you're only calling because you must be horny. I was floored. It was completely not her. I was able to talk her in off the ledge and the 2hr call ended well. But that was the beginning of the end.
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Did Jesus really die on a cross?
by macys inbeing raised a catholic we had lots of crosses around the house.
when my family converted to this cult they were all removed and destroyed in case they had demons in them lol but at this juncture in my life i do not even know if jesus as the way he is portrayed in the bible was real.
yes a man named jesus did live and die 2000 years ago and probably on a cross but he was definitely not the son of god.
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WireRider
Everyone needs to remember that the JW/WT high jacked the Catholic Bible only about 150 years ago and have been trying to change it ever since. The NWT is not the Bible. Teaching hate against Catholics, but use their Bible. Forbid members from ever witnessing their services or hearing truth. Russell/JW/WT are followers of Arius. He was kicked out of the "Bible committee" of Catholic Bishops (Council of Nicaea) that assembled the New Testament as we know it. - Arius ideas and works were ordered to be completely burned and he was exiled. NONE of his teaching were allowed into the Bible. The JW/WT teaches from the Catholic Bible ... they hate.
Cross/pole doesn't really matter. Event did. What I always remember was that Jesus was said to have been ordered to carry his own cross to the hill - marched through town. Fact is that it would have been impossible, in his condition, to carry a full cross. What he was carrying, marched through town, was the cross-beam to form the cross. The humiliation was to carry his own cross beam to be hung on.
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Do JWs still believe the WT version of the 144000?
by nicolaou inthe society have taught for many years that only 144,000 individuals will have embraced true worship from the time when jesus (and presumably john the baptist six months before him) began his ministry in about 30 c.e.
when the great crowd began to be drawn in.. however, even a casual reading of the book of acts shows the phenomenal growth of christianity during the time of the apostles.
in colossians ch1 paul even makes the comment that the good news had at that point been preached to all creation that was under heaven.. in 64 c.e, there were so many christians in rome already that nero felt he could easily blame them for the destructive fire which had swept through the city.
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WireRider
Revelation:
Of the sons of Israel:
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Judah.
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Reuben
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Gad
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Asher
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Naph'tali
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Manas'seh
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Simeon
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Levi
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Is'sachatt
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Zeb'ulun
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Joseph
Twelve thousand out of the tribe of Benjamin
SOMEONE please tell me why that is not specific. EHHH, it's symbolic. NO. It is very specific. NO JW/WT.
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Do JWs still believe the WT version of the 144000?
by nicolaou inthe society have taught for many years that only 144,000 individuals will have embraced true worship from the time when jesus (and presumably john the baptist six months before him) began his ministry in about 30 c.e.
when the great crowd began to be drawn in.. however, even a casual reading of the book of acts shows the phenomenal growth of christianity during the time of the apostles.
in colossians ch1 paul even makes the comment that the good news had at that point been preached to all creation that was under heaven.. in 64 c.e, there were so many christians in rome already that nero felt he could easily blame them for the destructive fire which had swept through the city.
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WireRider
I am truly shocked at the ignorance and lies. NO JW or WT will ever be part of the 144,000, Ever.
It has nothing to do with 1935, or any such "queue" to be filled.
It has NEVER been "symbolic" in any form or nature AT ALL. It is spelled out. NO JW - NO WT.
Few thing's are ever spelled out so specifically in the Bible as the 144. It very specifically says 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL. Period. Period.
Show of hands - how many JW/WT are Jewish, decendants of the 12 tribes of Israel, or follow the faith of Israel?
How can someone follow the worlds of the Bible to such extremes, and oddly force people into vague interpretations, flat out refuse very specifically spelled out "12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel?"
In the book of Revelations, and in many places, has VERY specific orders for the JW/WT. The false prophets shall be cast into the lake of fire. The false prophets must die. A false prophet is biblically describe as those that claim to speak for God, or in the name of God, and those things do not come to pass - those false prophets must die.
The JW/WT is the false prophet of Revelations and has lied lied lied about the end of the world so many fake times. Every one was a money making fundraising drive. Rutherford needed a new mansion in CA. They still do it. I think we can agree how Jesus felt about money changes earning profits in "my house" in Jerusalem. The WT is nothing more than the money changers - the ambulance chasers - following and exploiting religion for profit.
There will NEVER be a JW/WT in the 144 unless they are Jewish or descendants of Israel.