troubled by reports of the very problems that were supposed to be only the mark of false religions peadophilia (and hiding it) and hypocrisy (supporting the un) many honest hearted jws, it seems, have slowed down their meeting attendance and field ministry.
what has the society done to calm these very real worries concerning actual, not imagined, problems.. .
simple.
:So they are saying XJW's with years of "being in the Troof", XMServants, XElders, XBetthelites, XCO's and DO's are inexperienced!
I think they want active JW:s to belive that if they put faith in the news stories, then they are inexperienced. And a JW do not want to be labeled inexperienced. They want to hear that they are mature, which they also will hear, if they go along and say that it is all lies.
in the watchtower world, woman are just about nothing.
they hold no responsibilities in the congregation except cleaning the toilets and not much more.
we all know that woman are just as intelligent as men, and some could even be good elders.
I think Paul is to blame for women being put down even another 2000 years after Jesus tried to explain a few things to us.
"Therefore all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, do even so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets."
( And for idiots, you have to add that this also is valid when a man/woman deals with a women/man ! )
i heard some of saddam's speech that he held to the iraqi nation (on the news).
he warned usa that they can not attac iraq.
because god is on saddam's side, and god would never let anyone to beat the iraqi nation.. now we finally know that it infact is saddam that has the true religion, the connection with god, jw's was the wrong answer.... i would love to hear his excuse for loosing big time if the war really starts.
I heard some of Saddam's speech that he held to the Iraqi nation (on the news). He warned USA that they can not attac Iraq. Because God is on Saddam's side, and God would never let anyone to beat the Iraqi nation.
Now we finally know that it infact is Saddam that has the true religion, the connection with God, JW's was the wrong answer...
I would love to hear his excuse for loosing big time if the war really starts.
.
we have had some pretty amasing classic comedy in britian over the years.. faulty towers, the office, alan partridge,ali g etc.mind you weve had some very crap sit-com 2.4 kids etc.. who does it better the brits or the yanks?.
sorry ozzies cant think of any from down under.
I like south park.
Extremly funny is the scen in hell when a jehovas witness ask why he is in hell, and the hell director answers: "sorry you picked the wrong religion as well. I believe the rigth answer was the mormons, yes the mooormons were the correct answer"
hey folks .
over the past couple of years , ive been viewing so called 'apostate' material from one source or another over the internet.
i guess i have been leading a 'double life' as the jw's love to put it ; whilst still going to the meetings i was still reading things about the history of the borganization .
Hi!
Great story.
One thing you can ask him about is whether Jesus is the archangel Michael or not.
Nowhere in the bible there is any mentioning of Jesus as an angel of any sort. Read chapter one of Hebrews and things will get crystal clear. Jesus is not an angel.
They will probably bring up the stupid argument that in 1 Thes 4:16, Jesus is using the voice of an archangel, therefore must be the archangel Michael. But they never finish that scripture, because the next part of the verse tells us that he is also using the trumpet of God. Which with the same reasoning would make Jesus God.
/Good luck
one intresting thing is that both the kingdom interlinear and the nwt is based on the greek text of westcott & hort.
that is a good text, and was the text for about two generations.
but today no one except the watchtower society bases their translation on that text.
the Committee have not used God's name in the NRSV
I never said NRSV was the ultimate and final in bible translations. I just mentioned that it was updated in a new version, when a more accurate greek text were available. The NWT has not been that in the same way. The main differences in the new versions of NWT is that nowdays they put the extra words that WTBTS has inserted in the text in brackets [ ]. The first version didn't. The first version was as you see, an addition to what was written as you can read about in rev 22:18-19. And more they have 'revised' the translation in John 1:1 to beginning instead of origin, because origin wasn't a good choise in rev 3:14, and WTBTS still wants to hold people in the dark concerning the meaning of the bible.
But it is not and no wishful thinking will make it a quotation.
That is your view. It is not wishful thinking. If it isn't a quote, then it is a improbability, and obviuosly then, with your reasoning, Paul goofed.
What I wrote was the Greek text of the words: It is the Lord your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service which is what Jesus was quoting.
The 'alone', mono, isn't in LXX. There is nothing wrong with it, but it isn't a word by word quotation, thats my point. It's a quote, even if the exact words aren't used, it's the meaning that is important. Now you have two differences, mono and proskuneseis.
Can I ask you a question? Are you still an active JW?
Edited by - Nowhere on 7 November 2002 14:31:30
one intresting thing is that both the kingdom interlinear and the nwt is based on the greek text of westcott & hort.
that is a good text, and was the text for about two generations.
but today no one except the watchtower society bases their translation on that text.
"It is also true of the Revised Standard Version, printed after world war 2 (1946)"
Have you ever heard of the New Reviesd Standard Version? There is a reason for making that update. Why doesn't WTBTS print a New NWT, based on the newer texts available? Thats my point.
Earnest wrote:
"Many of the principles derived by Westcott & Hort are equally valid today."
Yes, but as you probably know, the principles are more complex today, than in the time of W&H.
Earnest wrote:
"I don't really know what more you want me to say of Jesus' quotation at Matthew 4:10. Jesus clearly believed that he was quoting what was written. A comparison of the Greek text you provide for Deuteronomy with that in Matthew only differs in one word "
Now you are getting somewhere! As you said, it only differs in one word (which of course is wrong, you only quoted half the sentence). Exactly as Paulus did when he quoted Isaiah, even if it wasn't a word for word quotation, he certainly knew what he quoted and then applied to Jesus. I think you are getting it now. As you said "it only differs in one word".
one intresting thing is that both the kingdom interlinear and the nwt is based on the greek text of westcott & hort.
that is a good text, and was the text for about two generations.
but today no one except the watchtower society bases their translation on that text.
Earnest wrote:
"Your thread was about the text behind the translation which you (incorrectly) suggested was limited to Westcott & Hort."
No. The thread was about why the bible is based on W&H, I never said it was limited to W&H, but based on W&H, which is an outdated text. I don't believe WTBTS is educated enough to by them self use the W&H text, and then by them self 'update' it with other newer texts. My question is, why not start from the beginning with a text that is recognized today as the best?
Earnest wrote:
"Quite clearly, it is a quotation because Jesus says "It is written..."
Ok, but where is it written then? Not in the Bible I can tell you. You mentioned Deuteronomy 6:13 as the source, but is it really written there?
"Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear." (NWT)
" kυριον <2962>τον<3588>θεον<2316>σου<4771>φοβηθηση<5399>και<2532>αυτω<846>λατρευσεις<3000>
και <2532>προς<4314>αυτον<846>κολληθηση<2853>και<2532>τω<3588>ονοματι<3686>αυτου<846>ομη
"(LXX, you maybe need greek font installed to view this, but strong's numbers are included)
As you see, it is not a direct quotation.
Earnest wrote:
"I should add that I am not personally convinced the Translation Committee were justified in every instance that they use God's name in the NT."
Do you also believe that God's name is omitted where it indeed could be inserted (the watchtower way)?
Edited by - Nowhere on 5 November 2002 17:52:30
one intresting thing is that both the kingdom interlinear and the nwt is based on the greek text of westcott & hort.
that is a good text, and was the text for about two generations.
but today no one except the watchtower society bases their translation on that text.
Earnest wrote:
Believe what you wish but the critical apparatus and footnotes in the NWT makes it abundantly evident that a large number of texts including UBS and Nestle-Aland were consulted and used. Bruce Metzger observes in an article in The Bible Translator of July 1964:
"On the whole, one gains a tolerably good impression of the scholarly equipment of the translators (their names are not divulged). They refer not only to modern translations, including various English, German, French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese translations, but to ancient versions as well, including the Old Latin, Old Syriac, Vulgate, Armenian and Ethiopic versions. Frequently an intelligent use of critical information is apparent..."
Bruce Metzger? I think you forgot to quote these quotes, also made by Bruce Metzger when he talks about the NWT translation:
"A frightful mistranslation."
"Erroneous"
"pernicious"
"reprehensible"
Any idiot with knowledge enough to copy different texts from different tranlations and with a little knowledge on how to use a greek dictionary can come up with a new 'tranlation' of the bible. This is exactly what the WTBTS has done. And when they can't find other translations that supports thier own ideas, they invent words to put in the greek text. You cannot say that you have consulted other texts, when you only use them as you see fits. They have instead manipulated the meaning of those other texts that were 'consulted'. They have not used other translations and texts, thay have misused them. And I will prove it to you.
Earnest wrote:
"while Phillipians uses similar language it is not a quotation and there is no reason to treat it as such"
No reason? Can you show me the quotation and the reason to use 'Gods proper name' in this verse for example?:
Mathew 4:10 - "Then Jesus said to him: 'Go away, Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"
I say there is reason. Do you think Paul was unaware of what was written in Isaiah?
"to me every knee will bend " and "every tongue will swear",
when he implied it on Jesus in Phillipians,
"in the name of Jesus every knee should bend " and "every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord/Jehovah "
one intresting thing is that both the kingdom interlinear and the nwt is based on the greek text of westcott & hort.
that is a good text, and was the text for about two generations.
but today no one except the watchtower society bases their translation on that text.
Earnest wrote:
"other Greek texts were also consulted"
Yes, that is my point. Why just 'consult' other texts, why not use them?, and not base thier translation on an outdated greek text? Beside, I don't really believe that other texts really was consulted, maybe they checked some words to see which greek text that bests supports thier own interpretaion and use that word from a different text, a little cut'n paste job.
I've ordered some greek texts and I will compare them, If I find anything peculiar or different in the kingdom interlinear, I will post it here.
"I should also add that I do not believe there is any credibility in the suggestion that the WTS does not want to admit recent textual evidence."
I would like to see that with my own eyes first... then I will believe it.
And one more very interesting thing you can explain to me earnest: Why doesn't the NWT translation use "Gods proper name" in Philippians 2:11? The NWT use the word Lord here for the greek kyrios, while according to their own kingdom interlinear translation, the correct translation should be Jehovah, not Lord.
See for yourself, KIT page 11-12: "How may modern tranlators determine when to render the Greek words Kyrios and Theos as the divine name? By determining where the inspired Christian writers have quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. Then they must refer back to the Hebrew text to locate whether the divine name appears there."
So then, lets take a look at Philippians 2:9-11:
"For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
and compare it with the qouted text from the Hebrew (Isaiah 45:22-23):
"22 "Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else. 23 By my own self I have swornout of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not returnthat to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear,"
Now we know that the correct translation would be :
"and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Jehovah to the glory of God the Father"
You might also wonder why Jesus would be given the name that is "above every name", isn't that Jehovah? Why has the NWT inserted the word 'other' here? it's not in the originals, that's a fact.
