Marked to refer back to anytime I might start feeling soft toward the god of the bible. I no longer believe there is such a being, but the guys who made him up and, (my apologies, Jews and Christians) the people who perpetuate the idea of him as a loving and just being, are just plain sick.
Socrateswannabe
JoinedPosts by Socrateswannabe
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Why does god kill children?
by Comatose ini was thinking about all the accounts in the bible that indicate god kills children as a punishment or teaching experience.
1. kills all of egypts firstborn sons, who were innocent kids who did nothing to him or his people, who had no control over the decisions pharoah made.
how many times have you read that account or thought about it without realizing the devastating pain dealt to all those parents, and remembered those were innocent kids?.
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The WTS has an ANSWER/SPIN for everything! Acts 12:15
by Socrateswannabe inper the ministry school schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of acts.
in chapter 12 king herod arrests peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the jews after the passover (evidently to be executed).
an angel appears to peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail.
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Socrateswannabe
Thanks everybody, for the great responses. Okay, so maybe I was wrong and it's not spin. Red Piller, Slimboyfat, and Sir82 make the point that guardian angel is probably a good rendering of this text, and the WTS in their explanation of the scripture offers that up as a possibility. That would, however, mean that in the Jerusalem congregation--the one I suppose where the apostles and older men worshipped--they accepted the traditional Jewish view of guardian angels as protectors of individual worshipers.
I think it's interesting that the WTS doesn't condemn this belief as heretical, they simply state it and then throw in a bit of misdirection to avoid having to admit that the first century Christians were wrong. If a JW today persisted in teaching in the congregation that each Witness has a guardian angel, I have a feeling some judicial action would be taken against that person. It probably would be considered apostasy. Seems a bit ironic to me.
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The WTS has an ANSWER/SPIN for everything! Acts 12:15
by Socrateswannabe inper the ministry school schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of acts.
in chapter 12 king herod arrests peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the jews after the passover (evidently to be executed).
an angel appears to peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail.
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Socrateswannabe
Per the Ministry School schedule, the bible reading continues in the book of Acts. In chapter 12 King Herod arrests Peter and throws him in prison, meaning to "produce him" for the Jews after the passover (evidently to be executed). An angel appears to Peter in prison, releases his bonds and walks him out of the gate of the jail. Peter hotfoots it over to John Mark's mom's house, where there is a gathering of the Jerusalem congregation. Peter knocks on the door, a young girl answers and is so astonished at seeing Peter that she leaves him at the door and runs into the crowd to report what she's seen. The congregation first says she's mad, then they say, and this is according to the NWT: "It is his angel."
How do you take that? That the congregation was afraid that Peter had already been executed, and was appearing to them as Jesus did after his so-called resurrection? If that's so, wouldn't that indicate that at least some Christians of the time believed in an instant resurrection? Not according to the answer spin given in the Questions from Readers in the 6/1/05 Watchtower:
Upon hearing that the imprisoned Peter was at the door, why did the disciples say: "It is his angel"?-Acts 12:15.
The disciples may erroneously have assumed that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate. Consider the context of this passage.
Peter had been arrested by Herod, who had put James to death. So the disciples had good reason to believe that Peter would meet a similar end. Bound by chains, the imprisoned Peter was guarded by four shifts of four soldiers each. Then, one night he was miraculously freed and led out of the prison by an angel. When Peter finally realized what was happening, he said: "Now I actually know that Jehovah sent his angel forth and delivered me out of Herod's hand."-Acts 12:1-11.
Peter immediately went to the house of Mary the mother of John Mark, where a number of the disciples were gathered. When he knocked on the door of the gateway, a servant girl named Rhoda went to answer. Upon recognizing Peter's voice, she ran to tell the others without even letting him in! At first, the disciples could not believe that Peter was at the gate. Instead, they erroneously assumed: "It is his angel."-Acts 12:12-15.
Did the disciples believe that Peter had already been put to death and that his disembodied spirit was at the gate? This could hardly be the case, for Jesus' followers knew the Scriptural truth about the dead-that they are "conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) What, then, could the disciples have meant when they said: "It is his angel"?
Jesus' disciples knew that throughout history, angels rendered personal assistance to God's people. For example, Jacob spoke of "the angel who has been recovering me from all calamity." (Genesis 48:16) And regarding a young child in their midst, Jesus told his followers: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven."-Matthew 18:10.
Interestingly, Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible renders the word ag′ge·los ("angel") as "messenger." It appears that there was a belief among some Jews that each servant of God had his own angel-in effect, a "guardian angel." Of course, this view is not directly taught in God's Word. Still, it is possible that when the disciples said, "It is his angel," they were assuming that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate.Am I the only one who thinks this makes absolutely no sense at all and is total spin???
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-23-2013 WT Study (MAKE SURE)
by blondie inorganization?.
organization!
organization.
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Socrateswannabe
Blondie, I don't know if this was Freudian or on purpose but it sure gave me a good chuckle. The "army of large women do all the preaching"! Yes they do! I am a big fan of your reviews--I never miss them--and I really appreciate all the work you put into them. You never fail to show the c**p that still spews from the WTS. Thanks.
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-23-2013 WT Study (MAKE SURE)
by blondie inorganization?.
organization!
organization.
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Socrateswannabe
Blondie, I don't know if this was Freudian or on purpose but it sure gave me a good chuckle. The "army of large women do all the preaching"! Yes they do! I am a big fan of your reviews--I never miss them--and I really appreciate all the work you put into them. You never fail to show the c**p that still spews from the WTS. Thanks.
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Socrateswannabe
mP, I learned that Stephen has one hell of a windup but not much of a pitch! He took 50 verses to set up Acts 7:51-53, which is ostensibly about Jesus. So what was the purpose for reeling off the entire history of Israel, just to say, you killed the prophets and now you've killed the righteous one? Seems sort of weird to me.
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Socrateswannabe
Acluetofindtheuser, I'm not sure I can agree to that, in Stephen's case anyway. "Lord Jesus, receive my oxygen or my ability to breathe"? Maybe I'm missing something.
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Socrateswannabe
Thanks to all for your observations and clarifications.
Bobcat, that is an interesting take on this and I will try to absorb it.
Stillin, this verse was in our bible highlights for this week and no one ventured a comment on it. We have no one in our congregation who could or would do the kind of research that has been exhibited by those who have responded to this topic on this forum.
Never A JW, Yes, I have a bookmark to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible online and it is of great help. It seems to me as though the author of this publication has done his research. Maybe he's not 100% accurate, but he has helped me to see the absurdity of much of the bible and a lot of the humor in it that the all-too-serious JWs have missed. Of the limited resources that I have yet found, this is one of my favorites. I realize it is rudimentary compared to the scholarly works that others have recommended here, but hey, you gotta start somewhere!
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Socrateswannabe
Cold Steel, this much I agree with you on:
"if you're going to understand the Bible you have to forget virtually everything you've been taught, read, or thought you understood. And you should begin by throwing away your New World Translation"
Prologos, you said:
"The timing of his resurrection is subject to the above mentioned good observations on Pauls writings, of which Stephen might have known little".
I agree that if there was a "Stephen", he might have known little of Paul's writings and his concept of a resurrection could easily have been different than Paul's, or different from Jesus' for that matter, since there is no indication that Stephen had direct contact with Jesus. But the JW religion is a belief based upon absolutes--the absolute accuracy of the bible, the fundamental perfectness of anything stated in scripture. The bible doesn't explain to us that Stephen had a wrong concept when he cried out for Jesus to accept his spirit, an obvious reference to an instant resurrection to Jesus in heaven, it just records his words which certainly seem to indicate that he believed that as his fate. The writer of Acts, in the very next verse, contradicts Steven's words by saying that he "fell asleep in death", but the writer (whoever he really was), makes no other comment. So the point of my debate is not whether Stephen was resurrected or not, to where, or when, but rather; how can the WTS reconcile this statement as being part of their divinely inspired, unerring holy bible, since it so obviously divurges from their accepted belief? Maybe someone has found a reference in the WT Library that addresses this and puts their WT spin on it, but I looked and can find nothing.
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Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?
by Socrateswannabe inin acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".
the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).
and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".
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Socrateswannabe
Bobcat, thanks for the link to the toolbar. That looks very promising. And BOTR, thanks for explaining some of the evolution of this scholarly thought. I realize that even the experts change their minds or find new evidence, but at least I would hope that is realtively objective and that there is no hidden agenda in their theories, as we see so rampant in the WTS. I think also, such as the issue regarding the Q source, that if a preponderance of scholars think it so, then that is a pretty good indication that it might be accurate.