Proverbs 14:15: "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." It is unwise to believe everything presented as truth in the Watchtower.
Posts by JWB
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13Do apostates voices represent voices of strangers?
by Mr Facts inhow the voice of strangers is heard today.
10 deceptive reasonings.
the apostle paul states: do not be carried away with various and strange teachings.
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12
When 'this' means 'that', 'you' means 'someone else' and 'shortly' means 'so far in the future you will be long buried and forgotten'
by JWB inwhen 'this' means 'that', 'you' means 'someone else' and 'shortly' means 'so far in the future you will be long buried and forgotten'.
"so he groaned deeply with his spirit, and said: 'why does this generation seek a sign?
truly i say, no sign will be given to this generation.
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JWB
WHEN 'THIS' MEANS 'THAT', 'YOU' MEANS 'SOMEONE ELSE' AND 'SHORTLY' MEANS 'SO FAR IN THE FUTURE YOU WILL BE LONG BURIED AND FORGOTTEN'
"So he groaned deeply with his spirit, and said: 'Why does THIS generation seek a sign? Truly I say, No sign will be given to THIS generation.'" - Mark 8:12 (NWT)
"Then Jesus said: 'I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" - Mark 14:62 (NWT)
"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must SHORTLY take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John" - Revelation 1:1 (NWT) -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Leolaia, thanks for your continuing contributions. I am trying to test the WTS doctrine in the context of its own belief system, which as we know accepts the orthodox view of what constitutes the true canon. So they would consider Enoch to be extra-biblical and not inspired. However, I would encourage those who want to aquaint themselves with what you point to as the Bible's literary context to look into 1 Enoch as it makes for quite an interesting read.
OldDudeGeneration, thanks for giving your analysis of this topic.
TheOldHippie, I stand corrected on the use of 'Church' in connection with those early writers. Of course, whether or not they really had known the apostles, and more importantly faithfully transmitted their views, is a whole new subject in itself.
Ucantnome, I appreciate your response. The 1914 date, as I understand it, from the JW perspective, is based on giving Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel 4) a 'greater fulfillment', yet another belief based on an extra-biblical teaching (please see this thread: www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/224491/1/A-second-fulfillment-of-Daniel-4-10-17-the-thread-by-which-their-spiritual-authority-hangs). -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Leolaia, thank you so much for taking the time to write and post your information here, I really enjoyed reading it as you show the progression of ideas that led up to the seven thousand year creative day doctrine. Here are some of my thoughts on the information you provided:
The third paragraph provides valuable information concerning what the original writer would have meant by 'in that day', with a helpful comparative reference to 1 Kings 2:37.
Interestingly, The Jewish Bible (Tanakh The Holy Scriptures) translates Genesis 2:17 into English as follows.
"but as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat of it; for AS SOON AS you eat of it; you shall die."
Also helpful was the information relating to Justin Martyr's idea about some kind of week of 1000 year 'days'. This appears to me to be the root of such speculative thinking on the length of supposed creative days, something that quite evidently is not to be found within the Bible itself. So here we see an emergence maybe of a kind of dispensationalism and reliance on extra-biblical writings to form doctrine on this subject?
The author of Barnabas gives his own speculation on what constitutes the length of a creative 'day', although I cannot see how he arrives at such a reasoning, since by his own words he shows he understands a 'day' to be a thousand years, so a creative day must amount to a thousand years in duration. To me there appears to be an assumption that the six days of creation is a model for a kind of 'greater fulfillment' realised within the seventh day itself.
So, the WTS has basically derived its creative day doctrine from "Christendom", leading all the way back to some of the so-called Church Fathers.
Thanks again. -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Leolaia, thanks for your lengthy post. I will need to read it of course before commenting.
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Ucantnome, I understand the reasoning of counting from 4026 BCE and having to include the 1,000 year reign, but this still does not address the question of Biblical support for a seven thousand year 'creative day'. Why not have a ten thousand year 'creative day' counting from 4026 BCE? Or even a twelve thousand year one? My interest here is whether belief in a 7000 year 'creative day' is specifically supported by the Bible. What I have found so far is that it is not. Accepting a starting point of 4026 BCE and including a thousand year reign into the calculation does not of itself tell us how long the period from 4026 BCE to the end of the 1000 year reign is. BTW, please don't think I'm taking issue with you personally as I appreciate your input. Maybe I'm not making myself clear enough?
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My heart goes out to poor Caleb
by JWB ina quick personal take on the new wts dvd for kids:.
1) the father seems like a robot (reminded me of arnie in the terminator).. .
2) the mother has a split personality, one moment she's all nice the next she's flipping out when the programming takes over.. .
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JWB
A quick personal take on the new WTS DVD for kids:
1) The father seems like a robot (reminded me of Arnie in The Terminator).
2) The mother has a split personality, one moment she's all nice the next she's flipping out when the programming takes over.
3) The daughter is hardly seen, and when she is its as if she's in a world of her own.
4) The son (Caleb) seems to be the only normal person in the household. It's such a pity that this pleasant boy is in a few short years going to be a fully reprogrammed mind-control slave! -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
Thanks everybody for the very interesting answers.
@Farkel: The scripture you mentioned is Psalm 90:4, which the NWT renders as, "For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a watch during the night." 2 Peter 3:8 (NWT) also says, "However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." These two scriptures are the only ones I can think of that make any reference to a 'day', but these do not give any support to the doctrine of a seven thousand year 'creative day'. As you have pointed out, really the WTS belief in this is based purely on speculation, yet they use this as an anchor for their teaching of the supposed nearness of Armageddon.
@Flat_Accent: I think you show very well that sometimes less is more. Also, I really liked the invisible presence of your message!
@Ucantnome: Let us suppose that the 'creative day' was still in progress during Paul's time. That still doesn't tell us exactly how long that 'creative day' was/is.
@Chariklo: Very good point about the numerology. It seems to me that the WTS has always had an interest in numbers, trying to use different calculations to make the Bible say something that it does not.
@moggy lover: Thanks for laying out the reasoning on God's rest period. As pointed out in my message to Ucantnome, they cannot use that to support a specified period of seven thousand years.
To sum up my conclusions on this matter so far: (1) There is no clear Biblical support for the belief in seven thousand year 'creative days' and (2) hence there is no clear Biblical support that Armageddon is just around the corner. -
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What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?
by JWB inwhat biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.
as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.
they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.
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JWB
WHAT BIBLICAL SUPPORT IS THERE FOR THE BELIEF THAT A CREATIVE DAY IS 7000 YEARS LONG?
As most folks here are probably well aware, the WTS teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of Christ to restore humans to perfection. They teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'. So I would like to know if there is any proof from the Bible that a 'creative day' really is seven thousand years long. I would also be very interested in knowing where this idea originally came from. -
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JWB
I think a child aged five years should understand these words:
"All this happened to Nebuchadnezzar the king." "Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled..." - (Daniel 4:28, 33)
Reading through Daniel 4 without the extra-biblical idea of 'greater fulfillments' a young person should be able to grasp the fact that, according to the Bible itself, all of the prophecy was fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar's day. That being the case, the date 607 BCE is irrelevant.