Thanks for your input everybody.
I'm afraid I'm not interested in how scholars have interpreted Daniel 4. What is important here is what "the One who is the Revealer of secrets" (Daniel 2:29; NWT) [ie God] reveals by way of interpretation. It is not for scholars to inject their own views, but rather to read the text and see what is plainly stated. What did the Revealer reveal to Daniel as to the interpretation? "This is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king" (Daniel 4:24).
This was not a dream about the Messianic kingdom, because verse 26 shows that the rootstock of the tree had to do with Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. The reason for seven years of humiliation was to teach the king a lesson in humility because of his pride (verses 29, 37). He was also to suffer such humiliation "until [he knew] that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it" (verse 25).
Although it may be tempting to take certain parts which seem like they refer to Jesus, such as "a twig out of the stump of Jesse" (Isaiah 11:1) [rootstock], and "he was despised, and we held him of no account" (Isaiah 53:3) [lowliest of mankind], the fact of the matter is that Daniel's interpretation was quite specific as to whom it applied.
Posts by JWB
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47What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?
by JWB inwhat scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.
this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.
does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?
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JWB
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47
What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?
by JWB inwhat scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.
this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.
does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?
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JWB
"BEYOND THE THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN"
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apollos for your good, that in our case you may learn the [rule]: "Do not go beyond the things that are written," in order that you may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other. [1 Corinthians 4:6]
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[1] An Ancient Prophetic Dream
One of those "sacred secrets" is contained in the Bible book of Daniel. That book provides essentials for determining the time for the giving of royal authority to God’s appointed king. In the fourth chapter of that book you will find narrated a divinely sent dream of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. What was the intent or purpose of this dream and its fulfillment? The record states:
"That people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."--Daniel 4:17.
The content of the dream was basically this: An immense tree was seen being chopped down at the command of a "holy one," an angel. The stump of the tree was then banded to prevent it from sprouting. It was to remain thus banded amid the "grass of the field" for "seven times."--Daniel 4:13-16.
What was the meaning of this dream? The inspired explanation of the prophet Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar was:
"The tree that you beheld, . . . it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.
"And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: 'Chop the tree down, and ruin it. However, leave its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it,' this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.
"And because they said to leave the rootstock of the tree, your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling."--Daniel 4:20-26.
So this dream had an initial fulfillment upon King Nebuchadnezzar. For "seven times," or seven literal years, Nebuchadnezzar was insane. His kingdom, however, was held secure for him so that, upon regaining soundness of mind, he again assumed his royal office.--Daniel 4:29-37.
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[2] Good News of the Kingdom Preached in All the Inhabited Earth
About 60-61 C.E., Paul reported in his letter to the Colossians that the good news was "bearing fruit and increasing in all the world" and had been "preached in all creation that is under heaven." (Col. 1:5, 6, 23) The early Christians had been obedient to the Word, and holy spirit had empowered them to accomplish a worldwide preaching work before the end of the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. A seemingly impossible task had been completed. How encouraging it was for those faithful Christians workers to hear reports of what was being accomplished!
In like manner, Jehovah's modern-day organization endeavors to keep precise records of the work being done in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14, which says: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." As dedicated servants of God, we have an urgent work to do...
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NOTES:
* All literature extracts and Bible quotations are from sources published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (WTB&TS).
** All underlining and bold are my own, introduced in order to emphasize certain parts of the text. Underlining shows Scriptural revelation, whereas bold shows where the WTB&TS points to extensions of Scripture.
[1] This extract is from the book "Is This Life All There Is?" (1974), Chapter 18. The chapter goes on to give the prophecy an extra or 'greater' fulfillment. It also claims "the evidence is that these 'seven times' amounted to 2,520 days, that is, seven prophetic years of 360 days each." By taking 607 BCE, which the WTB&TS regards as the true date of the first destruction of Jerusalem, and adding 2,520 years (days converted to years) to that date, 1914 CE comes into focus as the year in which Jesus Christ began his invisible presence as King over the earth.
[2] This extract is from page 84 of the book "Organized To Do Jehovah's Will". Interestingly, Volume 4 of the 1984 Revised Large Print edition of the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" makes reference to Matthew 24:14 in connection with Colossians 1:23.
The WTB&TS gives credence to second or 'greater' fulfillments of prophecy, 'prophetic dramas', and 'antitypes'. These theological devices have been employed to make certain passages of the Bible appear to: (a) refer to the modern age in general, and (b) refer to the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses in particular. The fact that Charles Taze Russell was initially influenced by the Adventist movement may have been responsible for laying the foundation for this type of reasoning. -
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What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?
by JWB inwhat scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.
this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.
does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?
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JWB
I'm happy that this thread has proved of interest! However, it was not my intention to address the topic of when certain prophecies (or parts thereof) happened, just simply to ask for scriptural evidence for the belief in second/greater fulfillments. Maybe another thread could be started on the timing of prophecies?
Below is a copy of an article I wrote for a blog some time ago, that looks briefly at a couple of 'second fulfillments'. -
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What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?
by JWB inwhat scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.
this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.
does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?
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JWB
WHAT SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT IS THERE FOR BELIEVING IN SECOND/GREATER FULFILLMENTS OF BIBLE PROPHECY?
This is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of Bible prophecy originated. Does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age? Has Second Adventism played a role in developing this view of prophecy? This of course has a bearing on understanding, for instance, Daniel chapter 4 and the predictions contained in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. -
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UK GOVERNMENT EPETITION 29949
by JWB inuk government epetition 29949. .
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29949.
started: monday, 20 february 2012. closing: wednesday, 20 february 2013. .
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JWB
This epetition was not originated by me. The credit should go to Cedars and others who initiated the campaign.
Please read Cedar's article at:
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/where-is-the-public-benefit -
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UK GOVERNMENT EPETITION 29949
by JWB inuk government epetition 29949. .
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29949.
started: monday, 20 february 2012. closing: wednesday, 20 february 2013. .
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JWB
UK GOVERNMENT EPETITION 29949
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29949
Started: Monday, 20 February 2012
Closing: Wednesday, 20 February 2013
This petition is for the charitable status of Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK to be revoked.
Responsible department: Her Majesty's Treasury
We hereby petition for the charitable status of Jehovah's Witnesses to be revoked. We believe that the work of Jehovah's Witnesses does not serve the public benefit, and is entirely self-serving. We also ask that the charity commission should take greater care in ensuring that all charitable organisations serve in the public benefit, according to the 2006 Charities Act.
If a thorough investigation of the religion were undertaken, it would be discovered that (1) the practice of shunning former members is rife, even among families, (2) the faith encourages the refusal of certain medical treatments, thus endangering lives, and (3) local congregation elders are empowered to internally police cases of child abuse, and dismiss and conceal cases that were not witnessed by someone other than the victim. None of the above practices are in the public benefit. -
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Africa Investment Summit 2012 and Watchtower
by TJ Curioso inover the next 19 days, 20 and 21 march 2012, at one whitehall place (london), a meeting will take place for large fund investors.
this meeting will target investment on the african continent in real estate, alternative energy, infrastructure, "hedge funds",commodities, venture capital, foreign exchange market, etc .... africa investment summit 2012, is the name of the conference.. http://www.venues-london.co.uk/venues/one_whitehall_place/.
guess who will be represented there?
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JWB
UK CONGREGATIONS - LANGUAGE GROUPS
[ALBANIAN]
London Albanian
[CHINESE]
Birmingham Mandarin
Cambridge Mandarin
Glasgow Mandarin
Hull Mandarin
Leeds Mandarin
Liverpool Mandarin
London Chinese
London Mandarin North
London Mandarin South
London Mandarin East
Manchester Mandarin
Nottingham Mandarin
Reading Mandarin
Southampton Mandarin
Sunderland Mandarin
[FRENCH]
Birmingham French
Coventry French
London French North
London French South
London French East
London French West
London French Central
London French Selhurst
Manchester French
[GUJARATI]
London Gujurati
[ITALIAN]
Bedford Italian
Horsham Italian
London Italian North
London Italian South
London Italian West
Northampton Italian
Woking Italian
[JAPANESE]
London Japanese
[LINGALA]
London Lingala North
London, Lingala South
Manchester Lingala
[PERSIAN]
London Persian
Manchester Persian
Rotherham Persian
[POLISH]
Glasgow Polish
London Polish North
London Polish East
London Polish West
London Polish Central
[PORTUGUESE]
London Portuguese North
London Portuguese South
London Portuguese East
London Portuguese West
London Portuguese Tadworth
London Portuguese Brockley
London Portuguese Burnt Oak
London Portuguese Upton Park
Maidstone Portuguese
Manchester Portuguese
Wrexham Portugese
Wymondham Portuguese
[PUNJABI]
Bedford Punjabi
Coventry Punjabi
London Punjabi
Nottingham Punjabi
Smethwick Punjabi
Wolverhampton Punjabi
[RUSSIAN]
London Russian East
London Russian West
[SPANISH]
London Spanish Cricklewood
London Spanish Crystal Palace
London Spanish Docklands
London Spanish Homerton
London Spanish Seven Sisters
London Spanish Shepherds Bush
London Spanish Streatham Park
London Spanish Queensway
Manchester Spanish
[SERBIAN CROATIAN]
London Serbian Croatian
[TAGALOG]
London Tagalog
[TAMIL]
London Tamil North
London Tamil South
London Tamil East
[TURKISH]
London Turkish
[URDU]
Manchester Urdu
[WELSH]
Bala Welsh
Caernarfon Welsh
CONGREGATIONS OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES IN ENGLAND AND WALES
CONGREGATIONS OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES IN SCOTLAND -
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The gun is the SHUN: the JW's who no longer believe but cannot leave!
by Terry inthe insidious bind the watchtower religion places on their members is unconscionable.. holding family and friends "hostage" as an extortion strategy may be their most potent weapon of enforced conformity.. .
in effect, like an armed criminal who points a gun at you and threatens "your money or your life", the watchtower leadership.
holds the power to separate dissenting members from those whom they most cherish.
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JWB
Good points Terry. As we know there was a world of difference between the character of 'spirit of the law' Jesus and the character of the 'letter of the law' Pharisees. I wonder how those opposers of his would have responded to these words:
"You heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you; 45 that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48; NWT)
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WatchtowerÂ’s Gunpoint
by Marvin Shilmer inwatchtowers gunpoint .
today i uploaded a new article to my blog addressing what watchtower self-describes as a dreadful power.
this article features telling statements made by watchtower itself, and astounding observations shared by well credentialed authorities.
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JWB
Marvin, I have just read your article and want to let you know that I thought it was extremely well written. You have shown quite clearly that the WTS uses a very potent form of emotional blackmail in order to keep members within its organization. It is, in my opinion, the type of psychological abuse which can drive some people to suicide. Thanks for taking the time to write on this subject.