Posts by Vidqun

47

What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

by JWB in

what scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.

this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.

does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?

Vidqun

JWB, don’t know whether this is what you had in mind. Here’s some of the pros and the cons, specifically dealing with Dan. 4. Take your pick:

JWs View:

Last, but not least, one should carefully examine the context of the verses. E.g., most scholars seem to ignore Daniel’s apocalyptic worldview (German translation: Weltanschauung). Daniel was intensely occupied with the outworking of God’s purpose in relation to the military and political activities of mankind. It should also be possible then to integrate these prophecies with other Biblical prophecies.

Nebuchadnezzar has a second dream (vv. 10-17). Again Daniel has to interpret (vv. 20-27). The dream pictures an unfortunate episode in the life of the king (vv. 28-37). It would have remained a footnote in history had it not been for three important factors:

1) Trees in the Bible often symbolize individuals, kings or rulership (cf. Ps. 1:3; Jer. 17:8; Dan. 4:10-26), especially in the book of Ezekiel (cf. Ezek. 31:3; also 17:22; 19:10).

2) The sentence: “ the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it” [Cursive script added.] (Dan. 4:17, 25). A related text, concerning Zedekiah, the last Israelite king, is coached in similar language: “As for this, also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.” [Cursive script added.] (cf. Ez. 21:27b).

3) JWs biblical view: Jerusalem destroyed in 607 BCE. The “seven times” (7 times x 360 = 2520 years) based on year-day calculation (cf. Num. 13:34; Ez. 4:4-6). The fulfillment of the “appointed times of the nations” or “Gentile times” in 1914 CE (see also Ps. 2:2, 6; 110:1, 2; Dan. 4:16, 25; 7:13, 14; cf. Luk. 21:24).

Critics opposing above view assert:

1) The book of Daniel was written by a Maccabean Jew during the Hellenistic period.

2) Dan. 4 is not symbolic. It concerns Nebuchadnezzar alone.

3) Days in biblical prophecy do not present years.

4) It cannot be proved that a “prophetic year” has 360 days.

5) According to secular chronology, Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BCE.

6) Christ’s kingdom was established in 30 CE.

27

Dreaded elder's visit come and gone.

by Vidqun in

the dreaded elder's visit has come and gone.

this is a condensed version.

e=elder; v=vidqun.. v: i believe god has withdrawn his spirit from the leadership and congs of jws because of all the bad things happening.

Vidqun

Yes, NVR2L8, you're right. The visit was due to an instruction from the CO. I discussed the UN-NGO debacle with him. Interestingly, the next morning, after our discussion, the Scripture at Matt. 5:29 popped into my head: If any part of your body makes you stumble, cut it off or rip it out. At the time I thought it meant I should just shelve the problem, put it out of my life. Now I view it differently. Rip the cause of the problem right out of your life. And we all know what that is. The elders will probably wait for the CO next time round in order to launch the big guns. I will definitely not meet with them again. I've said what I wanted to say. I have been coaxed by the best, that's why! So bring it on....

27

Dreaded elder's visit come and gone.

by Vidqun in

the dreaded elder's visit has come and gone.

this is a condensed version.

e=elder; v=vidqun.. v: i believe god has withdrawn his spirit from the leadership and congs of jws because of all the bad things happening.

Vidqun

Thanks for the input. At this stage I don't give a damn which direction they want to jump. Only problem is my mother. Don't want to make it akward for her. So from here on, I will be avoiding all elder visits, in whatever form they want to organize it. Yes, and thank you to all the contributors on JWN. This has prepared me for all eventualities. It's like a film script. You know exactly what's coming. Thank goodness they don't encourage the R&F to study or develop their brain. It's a turkey shoot. Their standard format of attack do not change. Funny, that's what they used to say of Satan, his machinations ("crafty acts") stay the same.

47

What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

by JWB in

what scriptural support is there for believing in second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy?.

this is a genuine equiry into where the idea of second/greater fulfillments of bible prophecy originated.

does it have definite scriptural support or is it simply an extra-biblical religious device thought up to try to make prophecies appear relevant to the modern age?

Vidqun

I believe Origen (185-254 CE) had a unique way of interpreting things. He saw in all Scripture a literal, moral, and spiritual side. His methods were not that popular. Perhaps he started with the primary and secondary fulfillment of prophecy?

Here's a few study notes I made a while back in connection with Daniel's prophecies to make sense out of the whole thing.

Prophetic interpretation, or exegesis, is subjective to an extreme degree. To lessen the subjective impact, John J. Collins describes Daniel’s prophecy as ex eventu, i.e., “written after the fact.”[1] So, in order to counteract subjectivity, one needs to add historical reality to the mix. In so doing, one strengthens the objective element.

Historical reality : This is the sum of present and past realities, based on undisputed, historical fact.

Eisegesis : The interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas (Webster). This is a criticism that the prophetic interpreter has to live with. However, one should keep in mind that many an exegete, ancient and modern, would endeavour to apply prophetic interpretation to his own time. Those that believe the Bible to be God’s Word, looks to the prophecies for guidance, a natural response to life’s challenges.

E.g., in the straits of the times the breakaway Essenes of Qumran, responsible for the DSS collection, would explain the Scriptures in the light of current events. Later R. Akiba, would give his blessing to Simon Bar Kochba, viewing him as the messianic king, thus triggering the Bar Kochba Revolt (132-135 CE).[2]

Josephus inferred that the Medes and Persians would be replaced by “another king from the west,” i.e., Alexander the Great. A fourth kingdom will follow “like iron and will have dominion forever because of it’s iron nature.” There can be no doubt that Josephus identified it as Rome.[3]

Jerome also viewed the fourth kingdom as Rome. The feet of iron and clay he specifically applied to his day (Jerome, Commentary on the Book of Daniel, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., on Dan. 2:40; 7:7).

Martin Luther affirmed that the end of days was at hand. He recognized a dual reference to Antiochus and the Antichrist in Dan. 8 and 11, and a direct reference to the Antichrist (the Pope) in Dan. 11:36-45.[4]

Sir Isaac Newton viewed the final King of the North as the Empire of the Turks and the last King of the South as the Empire of the Saracens ( Isaac Newton, Observations upon the prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of John, p. 155 (published by M. Olckers) .

*

In the history of prophetic interpretation, it has been established that a prophecy often has a primary as well as secondary fulfillment. This is most clearly demonstrated by the composite sign of Jesus’ end time prophecy, dealing with the conclusion of the Jewish system, yet corresponding to his parousia at the conclusion of the present system (cf. Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; Luk. 21). The reader should therefore be the sole arbiter in the light of the evidence. And yes, eventually and inevitably, time itself have the last word, whether an interpretation is to stand or to fall.

[1] John J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, Hermeneia-series, p. 60.

[2] Akiba ben Joseph. (2011). Encyclopædia Britannica. E ncyclopædia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica.

[3] John J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, Hermeneia-series, p. 85.

[4] Ibid., p. 119.

27

Dreaded elder's visit come and gone.

by Vidqun in

the dreaded elder's visit has come and gone.

this is a condensed version.

e=elder; v=vidqun.. v: i believe god has withdrawn his spirit from the leadership and congs of jws because of all the bad things happening.

Vidqun

DS, this is his second visit. This was a new cong. for me. I am an ordinary publisher, refusing to become a MS, although a Witness for over 30 years. I went out on a Wednesday in the service. My time was limited because of work obligations. I was ignored for about two and a half years. I am a free thinker, thus a persona non grata. Nobody would socialize with me at all. Of course, I was called on to do sound at the meetings as well as the odd Bible Reading. There's a shortage of MS. I am glad nobody bothered. This made things much easier for me. But then, I am quite resolute in what I believe. I think he got the drift.

27

Dreaded elder's visit come and gone.

by Vidqun in

the dreaded elder's visit has come and gone.

this is a condensed version.

e=elder; v=vidqun.. v: i believe god has withdrawn his spirit from the leadership and congs of jws because of all the bad things happening.

Vidqun

The dreaded elder's visit has come and gone. This is a condensed version. It went something like this. E=elder; V=Vidqun.

V: I believe God has withdrawn his spirit from the leadership and congs of JWs because of all the bad things happening. E.g. defective judicial decisions, especially with pedofiles, UN-NGO fiasco, importation of pharasaic type laws, etc.

E: These brothers are not inspired, but guided by holy spirit.

V: To say they were guided by holy spirit would be an affront to the holy spirit. God (or his spirit) should not always be blamed for human cockups.

E: I believe this is God's org. We are the only org. to preach the good news, declare God's name, teach about the kingdom.

V: Yes, the Israelites also were God's chosen nation, until he rejected them.

V: Before the modernday JW came into being, who were the ones spreading Christianity? Where did the JWs get their information from?

E: Quoting Luke 12:41. Faithful steward.

V: Please read on: If the steward starts beating the men and maidservants, he will be punished with the greatest severity (cf. Luk. 12:45, 46). This is made clear by the prophecies, e.g. Ez. 38, 39; Dan. 11:40-45; Zech. 13:7-14:5; Rev. 11:7, 8. God's judgment starts with his own house (2 Pet. 4:17).

E: Hebrews 10:24-26: We are ordered to attend meetings, if not, it could lead to willful sin.

V: I would be very careful to make such an assumption. Not even the Society goes that far. They admit that the forsaking of the meetings and the next verse, sinning willfully, should not be used together. If you believe that, you are deviating from the Society's teachings.

E: Each must decide for himself what to believe.

V: I agree. Please read Rom. 14:12, 13: "So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God. Therefore let us not be judging one another any longer, but rather make this your decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for falling."

E: We agree to disagree.

V: I have always followed the dictates of my conscience. Nothing has changed.

E: So how must we view you? Usually if one dissociates oneself, one writes a letter.

V: No, I will not be writing a letter. I have others to consider.

Comment: He is quite young. Perhaps that would make him think. He is a young, uber-elder, so I doubt it. Somehow, I don't think he will come alone, next time. Feel free to comment.

44

Higher Education compared to sacrificing your child to Moloch!

by Vidqun in

forthcoming attraction at the next circuit assembly.

for those that are interested in attending.

if you encourage your child to pursue higher education, you are sacrificing him or her to molech (cf.

Vidqun

LHG, that's one of the red flags that went up for me. In one of the talks at an assembly, Higher Education was seriously discouraged. They had a youngster up on the platform, explaining how he gave up his college course to pioneer. The one that presented the information praised him for his action. The audience clapped in appreciation. Next came the announcements, advertising the Bethel meeting. And of course, they needed registered lawyers, nurses, dentists, doctors, etc. Then I knew something was seriously wrong. The UN-NGO debacle sealed it for me. I hate hypocrisy!

44

Higher Education compared to sacrificing your child to Moloch!

by Vidqun in

forthcoming attraction at the next circuit assembly.

for those that are interested in attending.

if you encourage your child to pursue higher education, you are sacrificing him or her to molech (cf.

Vidqun

Lamallcool, "Let God's Name be Sanctified," not sure where the above fits in. Probably the part "Do not bring reproach on Jehovah" and "bad association". It's lumped in with Internet use, Pornography, etc.

44

Higher Education compared to sacrificing your child to Moloch!

by Vidqun in

forthcoming attraction at the next circuit assembly.

for those that are interested in attending.

if you encourage your child to pursue higher education, you are sacrificing him or her to molech (cf.

Vidqun

Don't know FA. Don't read those anymore. To be brain dead could be contagious, so I stay away from them.

44

Higher Education compared to sacrificing your child to Moloch!

by Vidqun in

forthcoming attraction at the next circuit assembly.

for those that are interested in attending.

if you encourage your child to pursue higher education, you are sacrificing him or her to molech (cf.

Vidqun

Was it not Gerrit Losch of the GB that ranted about Higher Education? I guess all the moderates of the GB are dead.