Posts by Vidqun

26

What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

who the el' is el' ?.

the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.

(bellah, 2011, p. 287).

Vidqun

mP, I have a book called "Israelite Religions" by Richard S. Hess, a professor of OT Studies and acclaimed archaeologist. The title of the book explains it all. Israel was never a one religion state. It had a Yahwistic state religion at some stage, but the other religions were never completely suppressed, in fact during certain times they would flourish. This is clear from the archaeological evidence and the Bible itself. Israel's name (= contenders with El) says it all, whereas the name "Judah" (= yehudah: yehu + ydh > praise to YHWH) is a theophoric compound name. They lived up to their name and proved to be more faithful.

Back to Snare, he asserts,

There is NO evidence of any Moses EVER existing. So no scholar has ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER had evidence for that. A biblical or christian scholar MAY hypothesise that based on the embarassment that El was worshipped and all of the sudden is compelled to appease the broken biblical narrative. Of course it doesnt explain who Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah etc worshiped if YHWH was not invented until Moses. But then again, we know gods, cities, nations, peoples, religion etc existed before the biblical adam... so it's a mute point.

“In view of the bibliography cited [about four pages], it should come as no surprise that scholars have widely differing views concerning Moses. There is Martin Noth’s Moses, of whom nothing is known except the site of his burial outside Israel. There is Julius Wellhausen’s Moses, the liberator who led the Israelites to the oasis of Kadesh. There are Moses the priest of Eduard Meyer, Moses the prophet of André Neher and Martin Buber, Moses the Egyptian of Sigmund Freud and A. Slosman, Moses the lawgiver of Jewish tradition, Moses the theologian of the Koran, Moses the Mystic of Gregory of Nyssa, and many more” (TDOT, vol. IX, pp. 28-32).

Most are pro-Moses. These judge him according to his legacy. Very few of these believe him to be a figment of an overactive Jewish imagination. There seems to be a few scholars that was “anti-Moses” but these are clearly in the minority.

26

What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

who the el' is el' ?.

the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.

(bellah, 2011, p. 287).

Vidqun

You just make shit up. El was before Yaweh, long before. El and Yaweh is the same person. Lie to yourself all you want, have fun explaining to yourself how Jehovah (lol) was content with his people calling themselves Isa-EL-ites, or his promised land Isra-EL.

Let’s first look at the etymology of the name “Israel.” It is by no means a foregone conclusion as your source contends. Note the first two has to do with “fighting.”

“The etymology of the name “Israel” has not been explained satisfactorily.”

“This translation of the verbal element is based entirely on the popular etymologies cited, and is therefore by no means compelling. This obvious fact has led over the years to a wealth of proposed interpretations” (TDOT, vol. VI, pp. 399, 400).

HALOT gives five choices: a) to fight against Gn 32 29 Hos 12 4f ; b) same derivation but God as sbj., “El fights”, so Eissfeldt OLZ 58:331; c) to rule, prove oneself, be ruler (Noth 207ff); d) Arb. to shine (HBauer ZAW 51:83); e)to heal (Albright JBL 46:165ff.; 63:221 96 ) .

Let’s go to your second source Mark S. Smith: He makes a statement: “The original god of Israel was El.” He continues: “This reconstruction may be inferred from two pieces of information. First, the name Israel is not a Yahwistic name, but an El name…” “Second, Genesis 49:24-25 presents a series of El epithets separate from the mention of Yahweh in verse 18…”

So the evidence is quite flimsy. And do we know for certain who borrowed from whom? Did the writer borrow from the priests of Ugarit or vice versa?

Can you show ONE reference to what you said, one paper? One scholar? One piece of evidence...... just one? JUST ONE ?

While we are dealing with Mark S. Smith, do me a favor and get his book, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism. Israel’s Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts. It will acquaint you with the origin and development of monotheism in Israel. You will find “Mosaic Monotheism” is discussed on pp. 150-151.

74

There is no doubt that Adam wasn't the first man. How do believers get around that small fact?

by jam in

using bible in determing the date of the creation of adam .

anyone in their right mind believe this to be true in today age.. don,t you think this nullify the whole bible?

the very first book.

Vidqun

James, this reminds me of "Prometheus." That's probably from where they started developing their plot for the movie.

26

What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

who the el' is el' ?.

the original god of israel was el, not yahweh, as is evident in the patriarchal narratives: the name isra-el means el rules, not yahweh rules that would be isra-yahu.

(bellah, 2011, p. 287).

Vidqun

Quite a few scholars assert that Moses was the one that introduced Yahweh worship to the Israelites. Yahweh was one of the gods going around, but Moses would establish monotheism, i.e., worship of Yahweh.

74

There is no doubt that Adam wasn't the first man. How do believers get around that small fact?

by jam in

using bible in determing the date of the creation of adam .

anyone in their right mind believe this to be true in today age.. don,t you think this nullify the whole bible?

the very first book.

Vidqun

Bohm, did you carry on reading from there? Unfortunately, the JWN editor won't allow me to break it up. What say you about the rest? Unfortunately, the JWN editor won't allow me to break it up. Both those sources are very knowledgable in their fields. You present a theory, and your peers shoot it down or offer something better. They don't resort to unicorns. Leave those for the kindergarten kids to play with.

74

There is no doubt that Adam wasn't the first man. How do believers get around that small fact?

by jam in

using bible in determing the date of the creation of adam .

anyone in their right mind believe this to be true in today age.. don,t you think this nullify the whole bible?

the very first book.

Vidqun

Jeffro, interesting opinion. Perhaps our definitions should be more flexible. What exactly did the writer of Genesis mean? We just don't know. And do not make the common mistake of trying to dress Genesis (or any of the ancient writings) in a 21st Century jacket. It just won't fit. Here is a few interesting thoughts on the origin of writing and human civilization. Perhaps Adam was the first "civilized" man? Yes, I know it's a theory. If you do not like it, you have to disprove it. The adherents of the theory of a monogenetic origin of writing trace all writing systems to a single system. These discern the following steps in the development of writing: Pictographic writing > logographic writing (one sign, one word) > phonetic system. The oldest system of writing, probably invented in Mesopotamia after 3400 BCE, was a pictographic system. So, for example, a picture of the solar disc meant «sun» and «light». This logographic system was perfected until it became a phonetic system. About 3000 BCE Sumerian scribes supplemented their logographic system by introducing a phonetic or syllabic use of signs, making it an agglutanitive language: it is made up of elements which almost always consist of a single syllable. When Akkadian scribes took over this writing system, they inherited both logographic and phonetic signs. They would add new phonetic values based on Akkadian, as well as determinatives and semantic classifiers. These have a specialized logographic value: the determinative is a logogram preceding or following a word and identifying the class to which it belongs. It is not to be pronounced when reading the text aloud. Phonetic complements are added to a logogram to specify its reading. Phonetic (syllabic) values of a sign can be represented in alphabetic script. Due in part to the nature of the Summerian language, a given syllable in Akkadian may be represented by one of several signs. See J. T. Barrera, The Jewish and the Chrtistian Bible, Brill, Eerdmans (1998), p. 81. A different perspective on the origin and development of man from an economic and political perspective, see F. Fukuyama, The End of History and the Last Man, (1992). Fukuyama views Western Civilization as the final development in the evolution of mankind’s political aspirations. In man’s “struggle for recognition” he has at last reached a juncture called “liberal democracy,” which includes “liberal politics” and “liberal economics.” Although there would be room for nationalism in such a concept, harsh autocracies and dictatorships could not be tolerated. The break-up of the USSR, and more recently, “the Arab Spring” in Egypt, Libya, Syria, and Tunisia, are good examples of a natural movement towards some form of “liberal democracy.” Such a “universal and homogenous state,” Fukuyama views as “the end of history.” The “first men” would be engaged in bloody warfare on the battle field, whereas the “last men” would assert themselves in new and unforeseen ways in the economic and political arena. The fact that man’s aspirations to self-worth and recognition would to a large degree be attained, he has thus arrived as “the last man.”

74

There is no doubt that Adam wasn't the first man. How do believers get around that small fact?

by jam in

using bible in determing the date of the creation of adam .

anyone in their right mind believe this to be true in today age.. don,t you think this nullify the whole bible?

the very first book.

Vidqun

Perhaps Adam was the first man that could read and write? If that's the case he would stand out as "the first man." Language (and writing) as we know it, is not that old.

55

Lot's of talk on the July Watchtower?

by noonehome in

jw
friends

so i've heard lots of talk from within about the 'new light' in this watchtower...i'm yet to look at it in any detail.

i'm kind of surprised actually...i first heard about it here before it was even available but close to the time it did come out people started bringing it up - even our co.. some say things like "have you heard about this?

" or "big changes," or "allot of things they said we believed, i didn't realize,"(lots of that) or "brain-overload" or " too much information, but i've never felt more pumped up" or "it's soo exciting to see jehovah's spirit lead his organization..." or "it requires time to sink in, but it's a good feeling!

Vidqun

And according to WT Theology, John the Baptist is not of the anointed and will not go to heaven. So does that mean Russel was not of the anointed? It gets murkier and murkier. Or is it a case of giving themselves enough rope.... to hang themselves.

13

Youtube Video of Watchtower Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses who were Homosexuals

by Scott77 in

most troubling are the sexual sins of the gb.

two of their number, ewart chitty and leo greenlees were both found to be homosexuals.

chitty was sent back to his native britain in 1979 and not disfellowshipped.

Vidqun

I agree with Balaamass, this is about sexual predators and child molesting. Homosexuality is a secondary issue.

16

My Experience at the Safeguard Your Conscience Special Assembly Day

by Vienna Angelika in

so i have some interesting news about the special assembly day.

normally at the assembly, my parents pay close attention and take turns taking notes.

then after the program, they enjoy socializing for some time.

Vidqun

My mother used to be an uber-dub, and she had a similar experience. Most of the talks dealt with conscience. An interested man and his family attended. Halfway through the program, they walked out, my mother hearing the man muttering: Let's go. There's no worship of God here.... My mother agreed with the man whole-heartedly. A lot was said of things that had nothing to do with the worship or praise of God. She also thought it was a massive waste of time. I am so glad that I don't have to endure such crap anymore.