I agree with you. That makes me an apostate too! Even when Jesus died he "delivered up [his] spirit" (NW). Funny how JWs squirm when you mention these scriptures.
Posts by Vidqun
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35Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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35
Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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Vidqun
Datadog, what gives you the impression that "it" is not in heaven? Don't believe everything you hear at a Kingdom Hall. The following scriptures tell a different story:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, the city31 of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly
23 and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator32 of a new covenant (Heb 12:22-24 NET)
Here the writer of Hebrews mention God, the angels, the congregation of the firstborn [according to the WT, this is the 144000], and Jesus. Now who are "the spirits of the righteous made perfect?" They can't be the 144000. Why would these be repeated? So this is another group. We know Ecc. 12:7 says the spirit returns to God who gave it. Now look at the following passage. Where are these? I believe they are in heaven where the altar is.
9 Now when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?"
11 Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been. (Rev 6:9-11 NET)
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30
Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
Official Aramaic, an international language, was spoken in the Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian Court. When the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, few Jews could converse in Hebrew. It was necessary for Jewish leaders to translate their holy writings in Aramaic, from there the Aramaic Targums (cf. Neh. 8:8).
I subscribe to the five-fold scheme for the phases of the Aramaic language as proposed by J. A. Fitzmyer: (1) Old Aramaic, ca. 925–700 BCE; (2) Official Aramaic, ca. 700–200 BCE; (3) Middle Aramaic, ca. 200 BCE–200 CE; (4) Late Aramaic, ca. 200–700 CE; (5) Modern Aramaic, 700 CE-present.
A language shift occurs in chapter two of the Book of Daniel. Dan 2:4b–7:28 is written in Aramaic, whereas the remainder of the book is written in Hebrew. [1] The language of the Aramaic portion of Daniel has certain affinities with that of extra-biblical Aramaic documents of the fourth and fifth centuries BCE and may be thought of as generally belonging to the phase of Aramaic history sometimes called Reichsaramäisch or Official Aramaic.
[1] On possible correlations between BA (Daniel) and the corpus of early Aramaic inscriptional material see the following discussion: Z. Stefanovic, The Aramaic of Daniel in the Light of Old Aramaic (JSOTSup 129; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1992).
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134
Who left or got stumbled over the 1995 generation thing?
by Julia Orwell inor the 2000's generation thing?.
how did you feel?
how did it help you wake up?
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Vidqun
I allowed the GB to think for me and dictate my conscience. If the GB says so, it must be true. And then I woke up....
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30
Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
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Vidqun
This is what HALOT has to say about "satraps." Although being an Old Persian loanword, it is also found in cuneiform writings and Late Babylonian. So it does not constitute proof of second century writing for the book of Daniel. To the contrary, it rather points to an earlier date of authorship. These administrative terms are predominently Persian and not Greek. One would have expected Greek terms to dominate in a second century MS, while Persian loanwords are well attested in Aramaic papyri of the fifth century.
*’ähhasheddarepan, Or. ’a?š`sub’ea: → Heb. *’athashäda-rpan (Ellenbogen Foreign Words 23 :: HAL 36a; HALOT 37a); loanword < Old Persian Xša<grc>qrapaµvan “protector of the empire” (Kent Grammar §78); also in cuneiform (AHw. 21a); Middle Persian s’trp (Herzfeld Paikuli 706), ?Ìštrp “in monumento Andabani V Susae invento”, see<spa> Parola del Passato </spa>31 (1953), 307); Late Babylonian a?šad(a)rapanu (AHw. 21a; CAD A/1: 195a); > Syr. ?tÌrp’ and ?tÌrpys (Brockelmann Lexicon 469a), corresponding to KBL s?trapa; Greek ( ? ) ξετρ?πη? σατρ?πη? (e.g. Liddell-Scott 1585; Hübschmann Armenische Gramm. 208; Montgomery Daniel 199); Palm. divine name, σατραπη? (for the divine name, cf. Haussig Wb. 1: 287f; J.G. Février La religion des Palmyréniens (1931), 139nd.147; Pauly-Wissowa (Kl.) 4:1566f): pl. det.: satrap Da 3 2f . 27 6 2nd.5 . 7f . †
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35
Dualism in new WT theology?
by Thoughtless ini am not the most "deep" wt student, and i am trying to beef up on wt theology so i can reassess my belief system and prove to myself that what i am planning to do is the right thing.
but what i lack in wt theology knowledge, i make up in some philosophical knowledge.
wt theology teaches a purely physicalist standpoint, in which our soul is limited to our bodies, no spirit.
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Vidqun
JWs are anti-spirit, especially when it is mentioned in connection with a human. See how they translate (and interpret) the following scriptures:
7 Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it. (Ecc 12:7 NWT)
30 When, now, he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, It has been accomplished! and, bowing his head, [he stopped breathing, footnote “delivered up the breath (spirit) NWT1950] he delivered up [his] spirit. (Joh 19:30 NWT)
22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,
23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and [to the spirits of the righteous, NET] the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, (Heb 12:22, 23 NWT)
6 And he said to me, These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets [God of the spirits of the prophets, NET] sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. (Rev 22:6 NWT)
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81
What Is The Most Absurd JW Belief or View?
by minimus inthere are many silly doctines and viewpoints.. one of the strangest ones is the blood doctrine.. why anyone could logically accept this belief is beyond reason..
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Vidqun
Another one: The "millions now living will never die!" pronouncement should have warned one that something wasn't right with this lot.
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81
What Is The Most Absurd JW Belief or View?
by minimus inthere are many silly doctines and viewpoints.. one of the strangest ones is the blood doctrine.. why anyone could logically accept this belief is beyond reason..
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Vidqun
The Beard thing!
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40
Now that I am out, which bible should i read? Feeling free at last!
by Freethinking76 inso, now that i am out for good, which bible should i read?
there is no way i will read the wt one..so i still want to have a relationship with god but don't know how to choose a bible.
it is very hard to dewired yourself and ,sometimes i feel that i don't have a relationship with him.the what ifs come and go still.last night i was up all night reading and researching , can't shake off the shock still to know ttatt.
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Vidqun
I prefer the combination of HCSB (Holman Christian Bible), ESV (English Standard Version) and NET (New English Translation) Bibles (all those with extensive footnotes).
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90
Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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Vidqun
Notsurewheretogo, welcome! I agree with Nugget. They're not interested in logic. You either toe the line or you're out.