Posts by Vidqun

30

Abaddon the destroyer is he Jesus?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

rev 9:11 the angel with the key to the abyss is called abaddon which means destroyer.. the cross references show jw doctrine teaches he is jesus himself using the account in luke where jesus got the demons out of that girl and they said don’t throw us into the abyss.

and revalation 20:1 shows an angel with the key to the abyss.. either watchtower are right and it’s jesus or there are more than one angel with the key to the abyss.. if it is jesus the destroyer of souls it sounds like conan the destroyer.. from the research guide-abaddon, the angel of the abyss—who is he?.

at revelation 9:11, however, the word “abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” the corresponding greek name apollyon means “destroyer.” in the 19th century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to individuals such as emperor vespasian, muhammad, and even napoleon, and the angel was generally regarded as “satanic.” it should be noted, however, that at revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be god’s representative from heaven, and rather than being “satanic,” he binds and hurls satan into the abyss.

Vidqun

EasyPrompt, don't you think God works in sevens? 3 1/2 years + 3 1/2 years = 7 years. 2300 evening-mornings is not equal to 3 1/2 years, no matter how you work it out. Take also as an example the period mentioned at Daniel 12:11, 12. 1290 day + 1335 days = 2625 days. I view it as follows:

Daniel (7:24, 25[1]; 12:7[2]) mentions “a time, times and half a time.” Revelation (11:2, 3; 12:6, 14[3]) breaks it up into different modes of time: Time, times and half a time = 3½ years = 42 months = 1,260 days. From there, 7 years = 84 months = 2,520 days (cf. 4:25). Thus, 1 year = 360 days. All the days, times and weeks found in the books of Daniel and Revelation are connected to a half or full Heptad. Time, times and half a time = Half a Heptad. This means unfinished business (cf. Dan. 9:27; Rev. 11:11).[4]

“Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the city."

Don't think you should apply this to the great tribulation as above sentence indicates.

[1] Aramaic year:) עִדָּןJArm., Syr., Heb. (מוֹעֵד Da 725, Sept. ἔτο῍ Da 416.32.34, Josephus Antiquities xii 7: 6 :: Vulgate tempus/tempora, so also Sept. καιρό῍καιροί 725 127; שִׁבְעָה עִדָּנִין Da 413.20.22.29, וּפְלַג עִדָּן עַד עִדָּן וְעִדָּנִין 725 meaning three and a half years (Bentzen 34, 67; Plöger KAT xviii: 105; see also 115f, 143). † See HALOT.

[2] Hebrew year: מוֹעֵד: מֹעֲדִיםוָחֵצִילְם׳ a time, times and a half Da 127 )as BArm. עִדָּן 2, meaning a year(. See HALOT.

[3] The expr. καιρὸν καὶ καιροὺς κ. ἥμισυ καιροῦ also belongs to the eschatol. vocab.; it means the apocalyptic time of 1 + 2 + ½ = 3½ years. See BDAG. καιρόν καί καιρούς καί ἥμισυ καιροῦ, a year and two years and six months (A. V. a time, and times, and half a time; cf. Winer’s Grammar, sec. 27, 4), Rev. 12:14 (cf. 6; from Dan. 7:25; 12:7). See Thayer.

[4] Gabriele Boccaccini, in the article “The Solar Calendars of Daniel and Enoch,” suggests that the writer of Daniel used a solar calendar, consisting of a thirty-day month x 12 = 360 day year + 4 intercalary times (i.e., the equinoxes and solstices) that were added between seasons but not counted in the reckoning of the days of the year. See The Book of Daniel: Composition and Reception. Volume 2. Edited by J. J. Collins and P. W. Flint, Brill, 2001, pp. 312-328.

30

Abaddon the destroyer is he Jesus?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

rev 9:11 the angel with the key to the abyss is called abaddon which means destroyer.. the cross references show jw doctrine teaches he is jesus himself using the account in luke where jesus got the demons out of that girl and they said don’t throw us into the abyss.

and revalation 20:1 shows an angel with the key to the abyss.. either watchtower are right and it’s jesus or there are more than one angel with the key to the abyss.. if it is jesus the destroyer of souls it sounds like conan the destroyer.. from the research guide-abaddon, the angel of the abyss—who is he?.

at revelation 9:11, however, the word “abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” the corresponding greek name apollyon means “destroyer.” in the 19th century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to individuals such as emperor vespasian, muhammad, and even napoleon, and the angel was generally regarded as “satanic.” it should be noted, however, that at revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be god’s representative from heaven, and rather than being “satanic,” he binds and hurls satan into the abyss.

Vidqun

ExBethelite, I guess one can say with certainty that Apollyon/Abaddon does not refer to Jesus, if you follow the analysis of the original words. I agree with EasyPrompt. Satan is a good contender for the title. Here's a few thoughts on the abyss.

The abyss can be favourably compared to the realm of the dead (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. God allows the beast to come up from the abyss (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). As part of the fifth trumpet blast, a star (or angel) unlocks the abyss, unleashing a locust plague to torment mankind. The angel does not control the locusts. Apollyon/Abaddon is their king. These are the soldiers of the beast, sent out to control and subdue the masses (Rev. 9:1-11; cf. 11:7, 8). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in this abyss (of inactivity) for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).

EasyPrompt, I agree with the first part of your explanation, but you lost me with the second part. Why would the locust-scorpions attack religious institutions, starting with the Bethels? They don't distinguish the religious or non-religious. The only ones that's exempt are those with God's seal (Rev. 9:4). All others will be tormented, perhaps by taking away their freedom? [[βασανιστής, οῦ, ὁ torturer, jailer Mt 18:34 uses βασανίζω of the treatment of a debtor from whom everything possible is to be exacted.* See BDAG.]] This will only take place for five months as the fifth trumpet or first woe. According to my reckoning this is part of the first half of the tribulation. Where do you get your 3 1/2 years?

Apollyon: Rev. 9:11(the locust-scorpions from the abyss) ἔχουσιν ἐπʼ αὐτῶν βασιλέα τὸν ἄγγελον τῆς ἀβύσσου, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἐβραϊστὶ Ἀβαδδών, καὶ ἐν τῇ Ἐλληνικῇ ὄνομα ἔχει Ἀπολλύων. Ἀπολλύων is a translation and personification of אֲבַדּוֹן (→ Ἀβαδδών, 4:11) “destruction,” for which the LXX uses → ἀπώλεια. It means the Exterminator or Destroyer. As seen, from the time of Grotius it has usually been taken as a play on Apollo, which is the actual reading in Syph.[1] From the time of the victory of Octavian at Actium under the temple of Apollo which was later enlarged by him, Apollo was especially regarded as the god of the empire. The locust is his creature. However, such an explanation muddies the water. What should be kept in mind is that the book of Revelation was written by a Jew and has a predominantly Semitic background. The origin of the Hebrew name Abaddon should bring us closer to what John meant.
Abaddon: Αβαδδών, ὁ indeclinable אֲבַדּוֹן) Prov. 15:11; Ps. 87:12; Theodotion Job 26:6; 28:22=ἀπώλεια LXX). Abaddon, name of the king of the abyss Rev. 9:11, explained as Ἀπολλύων, i.e., Destroyer ) cp. (אָבַד. With this nuance of ʾabhadh we come to the most important noun from this root, ʾabhaddon (with its by-form ʾabhaddoh). Very rarely does this word mean “destruction” (Job 31:12; perhaps also in 1QM fragm. 9:3). Much more often in the Old Testament, and particularly in Wisdom Literature, it means the “place of destruction,” i.e., the Underworld. However, in Rev. 9:11 it is used as a personal name, so this meaning should be ruled out. See BDAG.
ʾabhadh is used in a more general way for destruction of enemies in political and religious conflicts (2 Kings 10:19; 11:1; 19:18; Jer. 46:8; cf. also Jer. 40:15 and the Mesha Stela, cf. H. Donner-W. Röllig, Kanaanäische und aramäische Inschriften, 3 vols. (Wiesbaden, 21966–69, 31971–76), and for ill-treatment of the people by kings and princes (Jer. 23:1; Ezek. 22:27)—all in the piel; cf. the qal in Jer. 10:15, and the Aramaic peal in Jer. 10:11).
Finally, ʾabhadh in the qal exhibits a variety of nuances: Quite often the qal form means simply “to die.” However, the context rules this meaning out. The sting of the locust-scorpions cause pain but do not kill. Of greater theological significance is the use of this word in prophetic texts where the verb describes how in critical times, when evil increases, good attributes and positive ideas vanish (truth: Jer. 7:28; knowledge of the law: Jer. 18:18; Ezek. 7:26; wisdom and good counsel: Is. 29:14; Jer. 18:18; 49:7; Ezek. 7:26; cf. Ps. 146:4; Deut. 32:28 and Damascus document A, i.e., CD A 5:17; righteousness: Mic. 7:2; courage: Jer. 4:9; etc.). The two plainly stereotyped expressions “the place of refuge (manos) is lost,” i.e., there is no place of escape (Am. 2:14; Jer. 25:35; cf. Ps. 142:5[4]; Job 11:20), and “hope (→תקוה tiqvāh) is lost” (Ezek. 19:5; 37:11; cf. Ps. 9:19[18]; Job 8:13; Sir. 41:2; 11QPsa 22:8; etc.) should also be included here.[3]

[1] Syph = Syro-Philoxenian Version, derives its name from Philoxenus or Xenayas, Bishop of Hierapolis in Syria, A. D. 488 — 518, who employed his rural bishop Polycarp to translate the New Testament from the original Greek into the vernacular Syriac of that time.

[2] A. Oepke (1964–). ἀπόλλυμι, ἀπώλεια, Ἀπολλύων. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 397). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

[3] B. Otzen (1977). אָבַד. G. J. Botterweck & H. Ringgren (Eds.), J. T. Willis (Translated), Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (Revised Edition, Vol. 1, pp. 20–23). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

33

At what point, does one become apostate to the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

at what point does a jehovah’s witness cease to be a jehovah’s witness?

what if a witness doesn't believe some of the official teachings of the governing body but remains silent on these subjects to avoid being disfellowshipped?

is he or she an apostate to the faith?

Vidqun

No. In my case they let me be. They knew I had my own thoughts on matters. Then one day I met a sister at the vet. She asked me why I never came to the meetings anymore. I explained to her about the Witnesses and the UN, amomgst other things. I thought it would be good manners answering her and explaining. From that moment onwards they were on my case. Later I found out, one of the reasons why I was disfellowshipped was because I shared my apostate thoughts with others and caused disunity in the congregation. But by then, of course I had written various letters to Brooklyn, New York. I heard the orders to dispatch me came from high up. Moral of the story, you may have apostate thoughts. However you may not share these with others.

28

Did God know Adam and Eve will Sin? - JW perspective

by bioflex in

i read about this topic sometime ago in one awake mag (cant rememer which one).

and from the jw perspective, he didnt know which means it took him by suprise or which makes it seem god is not as almighty as we would believe.

this is their reasoning.. http://www.watchtower.org/e/20110101a/article_01.htm.

Vidqun

Perhaps God works on percentages like the bookies? Say 70-30 they will become rebellious and disobey Him. There's a remote chance that they will remain faithful... Does God allow for the benefit of the doubt?

11

The G.B. are now going to be EQUAL with Christ in heaven!!!!

by BoogerMan in

they are not just going to be "joint kings and priests," oh no, because the latest washtowel is sneakily implying that they will be "joint kings and high priests.

october 2023 study watchtower p. 28, par.

13 - "after jesus was resurrected, he entered the most holy of the spiritual temple, where all the anointed eventually join him.".

Vidqun

This is how I understand it. God is the ruler of the universe. This does not change. He has handed judgment and rulership of the earth and its people over to His son. He will govern for a thousand years. After destroying death, he will hand the kingdom back to his Father.

Time indefinite vs. Forever: Hebr. ʿôlām possibly from ʿālam “to hide,” Gr. aiōn. Here the context should be one’s guide. Most scholars translate ʿôlām as “long time,” “farthest, remotest time” or “perpetuity.” From the perspective of the writer/speaker it can look forward, towards the (distant) future or backwards, bygone times (long ago). E.g., God’s kingship is forever (Rev 15:3; cf. Ps. 10:16a; 29:10b; 146:10). John hears what seems to be the voice of a great multitude, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns” (Rev. 19:6 ESV, NET; cf. Jer. 10:7, 10; Zech. 14:9, 17; 1 Tim. 1:17). However, Jesus, as Messianic king, will be ruling a thousand years (Ps. 45:6, 17; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 20:4).

11

The G.B. are now going to be EQUAL with Christ in heaven!!!!

by BoogerMan in

they are not just going to be "joint kings and priests," oh no, because the latest washtowel is sneakily implying that they will be "joint kings and high priests.

october 2023 study watchtower p. 28, par.

13 - "after jesus was resurrected, he entered the most holy of the spiritual temple, where all the anointed eventually join him.".

Vidqun

Yes, I agree. Jesus will always be the head (Eph. 5:23).

21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. (Rev. 3:21 NWT)

This is what Thayer's Lexicon says of the above, which makes sense:

To indicate that he has become a partner in God's universal government (cf. Knapp, De J. Chr. ad dextram dei sedente, in his Scripts var. arg., p. 41ff; (Stuart, Commentary on Hebrews, excurs. iv.)). That these expressions are to be understood in this figurative sense, and not of a fixed and definite place in the highest heavens (as Chr. From Fritzsche in Nov. Opuscc. acad., p. 209ff tries to prove, after the orthodox theologians of the reformed church), will be questioned by no one who carefully considers Rev. 3:21.

11

The G.B. are now going to be EQUAL with Christ in heaven!!!!

by BoogerMan in

they are not just going to be "joint kings and priests," oh no, because the latest washtowel is sneakily implying that they will be "joint kings and high priests.

october 2023 study watchtower p. 28, par.

13 - "after jesus was resurrected, he entered the most holy of the spiritual temple, where all the anointed eventually join him.".

Vidqun

Why are you looking at this thread then if you are so disinterested? Give it a break. Rather follow threads at your level and interest. Your comment adds nothing of value.

11

The G.B. are now going to be EQUAL with Christ in heaven!!!!

by BoogerMan in

they are not just going to be "joint kings and priests," oh no, because the latest washtowel is sneakily implying that they will be "joint kings and high priests.

october 2023 study watchtower p. 28, par.

13 - "after jesus was resurrected, he entered the most holy of the spiritual temple, where all the anointed eventually join him.".

Vidqun

October 2023 Study Watchtower p. 28, par. 13 - "After Jesus was resurrected, he entered the Most Holy of the spiritual temple, where all the anointed eventually join him."

I have news for them. There is not going to be a temple in heaven. When Revelation refers to the sanctuary in heaven, it points to a symbolic tabernacle (cf. Rev. 15:5). Funny. One would have thought that the anointed would know this:

22 And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is].

23 And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. (Rev. 21:22, 23 NW)

It looks like the apostle Paul was wrong when he told Christians that they were God's spiritual temple.

Yes, BoogerMan, you’ve hit the nail on the head. This is the point. God’s people is going to make up God’s temple. This also explains why God orders the measuring of the temple as his property. His people will be kept safe through the tribulation period. However, the courtyard He allows to be trampled by the nations for three and a half years (Rev. 11:1, 2; cf. Rev. 7:14).

33

"How Long Would Jesus' Reign Be?"

by BoogerMan in

simple enough question for a jw to answer, because the org has told them for over 100 years that, .

a) jesus would reign for 1000 years, and.

b) that his reign began in 1914 when he became king.

Vidqun

Boogerman, I see you left Matt. 19:28 out. These sit on thrones. Who sits on a throne? See Rev. 3:21.

"and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth." (Rev. 5:10 DBY).

"You made them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will rule over the earth" [lit. "on," καὶ βασιλεύσουσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς]. (Rev. 5:10 GNT). (Rev. 5:10 CJB)

So who is right? See Rev. 9:11: "They have as king over them [lit. "on," ἔχουσιν ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν βασιλέα] (NA28) the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon."

According to the dictionaries and lexicons: ἐπὶ, marker of power, authority, control of or over someone or someth., over

a. w. gen. (Hdt. 5, 109 al.; Mitt-Wilck. I/1, 124, 1=BGU 1120, 1 [5 BC] πρωτάρχῳ ἐ. τοῦ κριτηρίου; 287, 1; LXX; AscIs 2:5 τοῦ ἐ. τῶν πραγματε[ι] ῶν=Denis p. 109) βασιλεύειν ἐ. τινος (Judg 9:8, 10; 1 Km 8:7) Rv 5:10. ἔχειν βασιλείαν ἐ. τῶν βασιλέων 17:18. ἐξουσίαν ἔχειν ἐ. τινος have power over someone 20:6. See BDAG.

Christians are referred to as kings in Rev 1:6 (v.l.); 5:10 (v.l.). e) Βασιλεύς is used for the king of the а ἄβυσσος in Rev 9:11. See EDNT.

As for βασιλεύω, I can't find any dictionary or lexicon backing you up. Yes it means "reign" (with a king in mind) • βασιλεύω fut. βασιλεύσω; 1 aor. ἐβασίλευσα; pf. 3 sg. βεβασίλευκεν 2 Km 5:10 (Hom.+) to exercise authority at a royal level, be king, rule (B-D-F §177; 233, 2; 234, 5; Rob.: 801, 833, 902). See BDAG.

βασιλεύω be king, rule w. gen. over or of something Mt 2:22; also w. ἐπί and gen. or acc. Lk 19:14, 27; Rv 5:10. Fig. Ro 5:14 . Of God and Christ Rv 11:15. In aor. (ingressive) become king Rv 11:17; 19:6. [pg 34] Gingrich Lex

βασιλεύω [βασιλεύς] be king, rule 1 Ti 6:15; w. simple gen. over/of Mt 2:22; also w. ἐπί and gen. Rv 5:10, or acc. Lk 1:33 . In imagery Ro 5:14; 5:21ab; 6:12. – In the aor. β. = become king 1 Cor 4:8; Rv 11:17; 19:6. DankerLex

Ordinary rule: ἄρχω, by a ruler: to rule or govern, w. implication of special status, rule act. w. gen. over someth. or someone.

ἄρχων: ruler. one who has eminence in a ruling capacity, ruler, lord, prince. See BDAG. Interestingly, Jesus is referred to as "ruler over the kings of the earth" in Rev. 1:9. At that stage he was not yet king.

But Boogerman, I do it my way and you do it your way. You can believe what you like and interpret the Scriptures in any way. Let me not stand in your way. As long as you are happy with what you believe.

33

"How Long Would Jesus' Reign Be?"

by BoogerMan in

simple enough question for a jw to answer, because the org has told them for over 100 years that, .

a) jesus would reign for 1000 years, and.

b) that his reign began in 1914 when he became king.

Vidqun

BoogerMan, this is where he got it from. It is indeed found in the Greek MSS. Jesus told his disciples they will sit on thrones. Note Peter talks of a "royal priesthood." You can check it in your translation(s) of the Bible.

28 Jesus said to them, Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28)

9 But YOU are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Pet. 2:9)

21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. (Rev. 3:21)

9 And they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth. (Rev. 5:9-10)

6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 NW) [Cursive script added.]