Posts by Vidqun

14

"Outside the realms" of the words meaning?

by Blotty in

i was recently doing some research and came across this curious quite from dr beduhn - i can't say how valid it is or if he actually said it (source linked).

but this got me thinking i don't think there is anything in any bible where it is a "deliberate" distortion or the words go against the "possible range of meanings the greek" could have.

i know beduhn is not considered an authority however he does have a point - if its in the range of meanings it is by no means a mistranslation & cannot be pointed out as such.

Vidqun

b. reverence, respect

α. toward God (Polyaenus 1, 16, 1; LXX; PsSol 6:5 al.; EpArist 159 ὁ περὶ θεοῦ φόβος; 189; cp. φόβος τὰ θεῖα τοῖσι σώφροσιν βροτῶν TGF, Adesp. no. 356 p. 906) and Christ, w. τρόμος Phil 2:12 (s. τρόμος). W. ἀλήθεια 1 Cl 19:1; Pol 2:1. W. ἀγάπη 1 Cl 51:2. W. εὐλάβεια Pol 6:3. W. πίστις, εἰρήνη and other good things and virtues 1 Cl 64. W. ὑπομονή B 2:2. W. ἐλπὶς: εἰς τὸν Ἰησοῦν 11:11. W. πίστις and ἐγκράτεια Hm 6, 1, 1. W. objective gen. φόβος (τοῦ) θεοῦ (PLond 1914, 12 φόβον θεοῦ ἔχοντες ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ; Philo, Spec. Leg. 4, 199; TestLevi 13:7; TestNapht 2:9; Theoph. Ant. 1, 7 [p. 72, 26]) Ro 3:18 (Ps 35:2); 2 Cor 7:1 (ἀγάπη P46); 1 Cl 3:4; 21:6; cp. 8; B 4:11; 19:5; 20:2; Pol 4:2; Hm 10, 1, 6a; 12, 2, 4bc; D 4:9. φόβος (τοῦ) κυρίου (TestReub 4:1; TestSim 3:4) Ac 9:31; 1 Cl 22:1 (Ps 33:12); 57:5 (Pr 1:29); B 11:5 (Is 33:18 v.l.); Hm 7:4b; 8:9; 10, 1, 6b; 12, 2, 4a; 12, 3, 1. Some place here 2 Cor 5:11 (s. 1b above). φόβος Χριστοῦ Eph 5:21.—For 1 Pt 1:17 s. 2aα beg.

β. toward humans, respect that is due officials (cp. Byzantinische Papyri [Munich], ed. AHeisenberg/LWenger, 1914, no. 2, ln. 13 p. 43: ἔχοντες τὸν φόβον … τῆς ὑμετέρας ἐνδόξου ὑπεροχῆς=having respect for your esteemed authority) Ro 13:7ab (CCranfield, NTS 6, ’60, 241-49: the ref. may be to God); fr. slave to master 1 Pt 2:18; Eph 6:5 (w. τρόμος); B 19:7=D 4:11 (w. αἰσχύνη); wife to husband 1 Pt 3:2 (cp. SEG XXXV, 1427, 5 [III AD]). Gener. 3:16 (w. πραΰτης).—WLütgert, Die Furcht Gottes: MKähler Festschr. 1905, SBerkelbach v.der Sprenkel, Vrees en Religie 1920, 165ff; RSander, Furcht u. Liebe im palästin. Judentum ’35.—B. 1153. DELG s.v. φέβομαι I. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 1062.

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Vidqun

נֶפֶשׁ, meaning of nephesh:

1. throat

2. neck

3. breath

4. living being

5. people

6. personality

7. life

8. soul as the centre and transmitter of feelings and perceptions

9. dead soul – deceased person, corpse. See HALOT.

ψυχή, (‘life, soul’) It is oft. impossible to draw hard and fast lines in the use of this multivalent word. Gen. it is used in ref. to dematerialized existence or being, but, apart fr. other data, the fact that ψ. is also a dog’s name suggests that the primary component is not metaphysical, s. SLonsdale, Greece and Rome 26, ’79, 146-59. Without ψ. a being, whether human or animal, consists merely of flesh and bones and without functioning capability. Speculations and views respecting the fortunes of ψ. and its relation to the body find varied expression in our lit.

1.life on earth in its animating aspect making bodily function possible

a. (breath of) life, life-principle, soul, of animals and humans.

b. the condition of being alive, earthly life, life itself.

c.by metonymy, that which possesses life/soul

2.seat and center of the inner human life in its many and varied aspects, soul.

3. an entity w. personhood, person. See BDAG.

Some Lexicon nuances on the noun “nephesh” and “psyche,” not so broad at all. That’s one of the reasons why I avoid theology books if I can help it. Lots of personal opinions in there. I rather find out for myself. By the way, the first Christians were Jews, so they would have adapted Greek terminology to their worldview as contained in the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures. I can see why theologians do not like Ezek. 18:4ff. Doesn’t fit their theology at all. Sounds like the new generation theology of the Watchtower. To fit our theology, we change the meaning of the word. Same with gene therapy vs. vaccine. Change the definition for marketing purposes. The following makes it clear, you love God with everything you’ve got.

And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (Matt. 22:37 ESV)

Sheol: Wasteland, void, underworld. Realm of the dead. See HALOT.

Hades: Orig. proper noun, god of the nether world, ‘Hades’, then the nether world, Hades as place of the dead. See BDAG. Obviously the Septuagint translators had to find equivalents and that’s as close as it gets.

The burden of proof is on you, since if you look at the commentaries, Christian and Jewish exegetes almost unanimously interpreted it as I wrote. By the way, logic also supports this, since angels are pure spirits who are able to appear visibly (with God's permission), but this is only apparent, they cannot concieve children.

You speak of the burden of proof. I don’t find it in your next statement. I don’t see the logic either, especially when it contradicts the Scriptures. Pure spirits with the ability to take on a human form (cf. Gen. 18:1ff.). These were angels in human form, able to eat and drink. This ability was taken away from the fallen angels (demons), which makes sense. That's why it became necessary for them to invade and occupy human or animal hosts.

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Vidqun

Aqwsed, as you might have noticed, I interpret the Scriptures quite literally. On the one hand, I view the soul as a living person (or animal). Adam became a living soul when he started breathing (Gen. 2:7). Animals are called living souls (Gen. 1:21). The Bible also refers to a dead soul (Lev. 21:11). The spirit is the life force of that person. When a person dies, the spirit is returned to God (Ecc. 12:7).

On the other hand,

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17-18 ESV)

Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (1 Pet. 3:18 ESV)

To me it’s quite simple. Like Father, like Son.

there is not a single mention of the fact that this would mean the destruction of Jesus' body and the cessation of being a human.

For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. (Heb. 9:16 ESV). [ For where there is a covenant, the death of the [human] covenanter needs to be furnished. (Heb. 9:16 NWT) ]

When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit. (John 19:30).

Why did he say that? He did what was expected of him. Because he was about to fully accomplish God’s will and fulfill his ministry and prophecy: “to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (Dan. 9:24 ESV)

In my mind the word “sacrifice” means the death of the victim. There is no other way (cf. Ex. 12:21). And is that not what the memorial is all about, the sacrifice of Jesus' body and blood?

26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body."

27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you,

28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:26-28 ESV)

And the fact that nobody recognized the resurrected Jesus, is also an indication that he rose with a different body. After examining the evidence, the argument of your apologists is unconvincing.

"See references to "Sons of God" .." - At most, your references prove that "sons of God" can mean angels, but they do not prove that it also actually means angels in Genesis 6:2.

It does not disprove it either. So where do the violent Nephilim ("giants"), "the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown" fit in then? (Gen. 6:4 ESV)

13

Martin Armstrong's latest book, 'The Plot to Seize Russia'

by was a new boy in

the 2015 documentary - 'the forecaster' was basically banned in usa.

so martin leased a movie theater in cherry hill nj and showed it himself.. 'a german tv station funded the 2015 documentary on me entitled the forecaster.

because it raised some of these issues back then, the film was banned in the united states as well as switzerland...'.

Vidqun

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/wikipedia-co-founder-describes-us-intelligence-manipulation-worlds-largest-online

Interesting topic. Yes, Wikipedia is completely compromised. And Putin did warn that if the existence of Russia or the Russian way of life are threatened, he will respond with nuclear weapons. These US neocons, wanting to take down Putin and Russia, are lunatics. They should all be kept in an lunatic asylum. Even better, they should be put out of their misery on a permanent basis. And as an example of uneven judgment by a DoJ run by neocons: Trump and Julian Assange vs. Biden crime family.

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Vidqun

Aqwsed, here's a few thoughts to contemplate. No man (human) can see God and survive (Ex. 33:20; Deut. 10:10; John 1:18; 6:46; 1 John 4:12).

Sign of son of man (spirit is invisible), so a sign is needed: Matt. 24:30

To confirm: “Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Cor. 15:45 ESV)

"and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect," (Heb. 12:23 ESV)

The argumentation of Paul in 1 Cor. 15:37ff. is quite clear. This is figurative language. E.g., "seed" and "body." And as discussed earlier, "son of man" is a self-designated title.

John 2:19-22 clearly means the resurrection of Jesus' body to life, not his re-creation as a spirit. And if he rose with his body, he also ascended with it. And this does not merely prove that His real body will be resurrected, but also that also He will do it as well. How else could he say a parable about rebuilding (which cannot be a passive role) the temple himself?
“Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have” (Luke 24:39).

This cannot be the same body that he died with. Jesus had to offer up his original body as sacrifice which he cannot take back (Hebr. 2:17; 9:26; 10:10).

1 Peter 3:18 - "but made alive in the Spirit." - This does not mean that he became an angel (spirit), but that he was resurrected by the (Holy) Spirit. The preposition "in" is often understood in the sense of "by" (cf. "all things were created in him", Col 1:16) He was raised "in the Spirit", but not "as a spirit." In Romans 8:9 all the believers in Rome are said to be "in the Spirit." Were they spirit creatures? The expression "in the Spirit" simply means "in the power of the [Holy] Spirit." First Peter 3:18 demonstrates that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead and quickened him.

You are misreading what was said. You left out an important phrase: “in the flesh,” and “in the spirit.” You want it to read “in the flesh” but “by the spirit.” Why?

"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

The expression "flesh and blood" occurs only five times in the New Testament. We must derive our definition of its meaning from these occurrences. Webster's Dictionary is of no use here. Examine the following references and see if the writers are not just as often speaking of "flesh and blood" as being "fallen man" as they are of the physical body. You might try substituting the words "fallen man" in the place of "flesh and blood."

Dictionary definition does not agree with your definition of "fallen man":

The material that covers the bones of a human or animal body, flesh lit. 1 Cor 15:39abcd; Hv 3, 10, 4; 3, 12, 1. The pl. (which denotes flesh in the mass. For Mt 16:17; Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12; and 1 Cor 15:50.

1. The physical body as functioning entity, body, physical body

a. as substance and living entity

b. as something with physical limitations, life here on earth

c. as instrument of various actions or expressions.

of human beings in contrast to lit. blood as basic component of an organism, blood

a. of human beings in contrast to gods: (αἷμα καὶ σάρκας ἔχοντες

of souls σαρκὶ καὶ αἵμ. βεβαπτισμέναι) Mt 16:17; 1 Cor 15:50; Gal 1:16; Eph 6:12. See BDAG.

Genesis 6:2 - here the "sons of God" are not angels, but pious people, men of the tribe of Seth, the Setites, and by "daughters of men" we must mean the daughters of the tribe of Cain. Angels cannot concieve children, as some superstitions believed in the Middle Ages, since they are pure spirits. If, therefore, the angels appear in visible form (angelophaniae) according to the presentation of the Scriptures, this body of theirs is only apparent.

See references to "Sons of God" in OT: Job 38:7; Ps. 86:6; cf. Job 1:6. These are angels with the ability to materialize as humans. Lots of Biblical examples of that.

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Vidqun

"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit." (1 Pet. 3:18 NET)

Spirit beings have the ability to take on a human form (cf. Gen. 19:1; 28:1). This ability was taken away from the disobedient angels (Gen. 6:2; cf. 2 Pet. 2:4). So, your "man" is Jesus Christ. He can take on a human form at any time. And he can also be referred to as a "man" or "son of man" because he did spend time on earth as a man. In addition, blood and flesh cannot inherit the kingdom (1Cor 15:44, 50).

72

Romans 9:5

by aqwsed12345 in

na28: ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.. na28 transliterated: hō̃n hoi patéres kaì ex hō̃n ho khristòs tò katà sárka, ho ṑn epì pántōn theòs eulogētòs eis toùs aiō̃nas, amḗn.. kit: .

nwt: to them the forefathers belong, and from them the christ descended according to the flesh.

god, who is over all, be praised forever.

Vidqun

Aqwsed, unfortunately Rom. 9:5 is not as clear cut as you make out. You have given one side of the argument, so I won't go into it. Grammar, Paul's theology and scribal error should all be weighed up for each to come to his own conclusion. The following is Rom. 9:5. Footnote 1 in Metzger's commentary:

Among many earlier discussions pro and con, two may be singled out for special mention as representative of the two points of view. In favor of taking the words as an ascription to Christ, see William Sanday and A. C. Headlam, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, 2nd ed. (New York, 1896), pp. 233–238; in favor of taking the words separately from the preceding clause, see Ezra Abbot, “On the Construction of Romans ix.5,” Journal of the Society of Biblical Literature and Exegesis, 1881, pp. 87–154, and idem, “Recent Discussions of Romans ix.5,” ibid., 1883, pp. 90–112 (both articles are reprinted in Abbot’s posthumously published volume entitled, The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays [Boston, 1888], pp. 332–410, and 411–438). For a more recent discussion, see the present writer’s contribution to Christ and Spirit in the New Testament; Studies in honour of C. F. D. Moule, ed. by Barnabas Lindars and Stephen S. Smalley (Cambridge University Press, 1973), pp. 95–112; reprinted in Metzger’s New Testament Studies (Leiden, 1980), pp. 56–74.

On the other hand, in the opinion of others of the Committee, none of these considerations seemed to be decisive, particularly since nowhere else in his genuine epistles does Paul ever designate ὁ Χριστός as θεός. In fact, on the basis of the general tenor of his theology it was considered tantamount to impossible that Paul would have expressed Christ’s greatness by calling him God blessed for ever.

Bruce Manning Metzger, United Bible Societies, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994), 459–462.

On the other hand, Paul nowhere else in his genuine epistles (that is, the letters which scholars agree were written by Paul; Titus 2:13 is generally regarded as not written by Paul) ever designates ὁ Χριστὸς as θεός. On the basis of the general perspective of Paul’s theology, it is difficult to think that Paul would have expressed Christ’s greatness by calling him God blessed for ever.

It is also possible that a copyist accidentally wrote ὁ ὥν (the one being) for ὧν ὁ (of whom). That is, the original text may have read “4 … of whom the sonship (ὧν ἡ υἱοθεσία), the glory … 5 of whom the patriarchs (ὧν οἱ πατέρες), and from whom (ἐξ ὧν) the Messiah according to the flesh, of whom God over all (ὧν ὁ ἐπὶ πάντων θεός).…” This punctuation “would make Paul assert that Christ by natural descent is a prerogative of Israel, but that God is the one who is preeminent and blest forever, in effect, Israel’s ninth prerogative” (Fitzmyer, p. 549). It should be noted, however, that there is no evidence in the manuscripts to support such a correction of the text.

Roger L. Omanson and Bruce Manning Metzger, A Textual Guide to the Greek New Testament: An Adaptation of Bruce M. Metzger’s Textual Commentary for the Needs of Translators (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 2006), 308–310.

30

Abaddon the destroyer is he Jesus?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

rev 9:11 the angel with the key to the abyss is called abaddon which means destroyer.. the cross references show jw doctrine teaches he is jesus himself using the account in luke where jesus got the demons out of that girl and they said don’t throw us into the abyss.

and revalation 20:1 shows an angel with the key to the abyss.. either watchtower are right and it’s jesus or there are more than one angel with the key to the abyss.. if it is jesus the destroyer of souls it sounds like conan the destroyer.. from the research guide-abaddon, the angel of the abyss—who is he?.

at revelation 9:11, however, the word “abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” the corresponding greek name apollyon means “destroyer.” in the 19th century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to individuals such as emperor vespasian, muhammad, and even napoleon, and the angel was generally regarded as “satanic.” it should be noted, however, that at revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be god’s representative from heaven, and rather than being “satanic,” he binds and hurls satan into the abyss.

Vidqun

ExBethelite, no what I mean is, if Satan had control over the keys, as Aqwsed suggests. But according to available evidence, the angel with the keys is as yet unnamed. Yes, it could be Jesus, after he was resurrected (cf. Rom. 10:7).

And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. (Rev. 9:1 NWT)

Aqwsed: According to Rev. 12,9, Satan is cast down to earth, and power is given to him to bring about ruin, and Christ Himself sees Satan fall like lightning from heaven (Luke. 10,18). Therefore, the star mentioned here is Satan, so the meaning of the verse is this: The fifth punishment consists in the power given to Satan to release the spirits of hell for the ruin of people.

30

Abaddon the destroyer is he Jesus?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

rev 9:11 the angel with the key to the abyss is called abaddon which means destroyer.. the cross references show jw doctrine teaches he is jesus himself using the account in luke where jesus got the demons out of that girl and they said don’t throw us into the abyss.

and revalation 20:1 shows an angel with the key to the abyss.. either watchtower are right and it’s jesus or there are more than one angel with the key to the abyss.. if it is jesus the destroyer of souls it sounds like conan the destroyer.. from the research guide-abaddon, the angel of the abyss—who is he?.

at revelation 9:11, however, the word “abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” the corresponding greek name apollyon means “destroyer.” in the 19th century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to individuals such as emperor vespasian, muhammad, and even napoleon, and the angel was generally regarded as “satanic.” it should be noted, however, that at revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be god’s representative from heaven, and rather than being “satanic,” he binds and hurls satan into the abyss.

Vidqun

Aqwsed,

What should be kept in mind is that the book of Revelation was written by a Jew and has a predominantly Semitic background. The origin of the Hebrew name Abaddon should bring us closer to what John meant.

This is why I stick to the interpretation of Hebrew “Abaddon.”

I believe the star falling from the sky is an angel. By the way, it fell and was not cast down. Big difference (cf. Rev. 1:16, 20). And why would God allow Satan the keys of the abyss? Won’t help locking him in the abyss if he has the keys. He would also not allow Jesus to be resurrected if he was in control of the keys (cf. Rom. 10:7; Rev. 20:1, 2).

Also don’t think God would involve Himself with Astrology. God hates astrologers and their craft. He will never use astrological signs as a means of fulfilling prophecy (cf. Is. 47:13, 14 NJB; Jer. 10:2 CJB).

Five months is not exactly “a while.” I’d say an hour or half an hour is “a while” (cf. Rev. 8:1). I believe it to be a literal 5 months. After five months it would be a good idea to get out of the cities (cf. Rev. 11:13; 16:19).

I don’t view Sheol, Gehenna as “hell.” It’s a theological construct of Christendom. You are actually saying, as many theologians do, that God is going to use demon hordes to do His will, execute His judgment and fulfill prophecy. I don’t see that at all.

EasyPrompt,

I agree. For Abaddon, I put my money on Satan. And the locust-scorpions are the troops of the beast from the abyss, which is the UN. I prefer to keep the Anglo-American world power (beast from the earth/false prophet) and the UN (beast from the abyss) separate. At the end both will be thrown in the lake of fire (cf. Rev. 19:20).

Dan. 2 Ten toes of iron and clay (all the nations) = Ten horns/kings of Revelation (Rev. 17:12, 16) all concentrated in the UN (beast from the abyss).

Perhaps one should not be too dogmatic in this instance. You take the basis for your understanding the creative days. So, do you believe these are 24h days? I believe these are not supposed to be taken literally (cf. Gen. 2:4).

As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings.

Here I go with the Society. Three kings, Spain, France and the Netherlands crushed by the British Empire, becoming the Anglo-American world power during World War I.

I see you’re still stuck with Watchtower theology as regards the destruction of Babylon the Great. This will occur at the end of the tribulation (not the beginning). See Rev. 16:19.

Jesus said: “and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“times of the Gentiles,” ESV, NET] are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24). The “appointed times of the nations” are to be fulfilled when Jesus, who has the legal right, receives his kingship, this time in a heavenly setting (cf. Dan. 7:13, 14; cf. Rev. 11:2, 15, 18). I would not put a time limit on this.

"But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months." (Revelation 11:1, 2).

Let’s first identify the temple. This is all of God’s people on earth (Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). The temple will be measured, meaning God takes ownership of it. It will remain intact through the tribulation (Rev. 7:9,14). The courtyard will be trampled by the nations for 42 months. This is where the dining rooms of the priests are situated. They will be persecuted till the end of the tribulation. Half of them will be killed, other half will be fetched by Jesus after the tribulation (cf. Ezek. 42:1; Dan. 12:7; Matt. 24:29, 31). This will take place during the second half of the tribulation.

ExBethelite,

No, I disagree. Jesus is to become king of the Messianic kingdom over the earth. God is Sovereign of the Universe.

God’s kingship of the universe is to time indefinite, even forever (Ps. 10:16a; 29:10b; 146:10 NW; Jer. 10:7, 10; Zech. 14:9, 17; 1 Tim. 1:17; cf. Rev. 15:3; 19:6). Jesus’ Messianic kingship is to have an enduring future, i.e., a thousand years (Ps. 45:6, 17; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 20:3, 4).

30

Abaddon the destroyer is he Jesus?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

rev 9:11 the angel with the key to the abyss is called abaddon which means destroyer.. the cross references show jw doctrine teaches he is jesus himself using the account in luke where jesus got the demons out of that girl and they said don’t throw us into the abyss.

and revalation 20:1 shows an angel with the key to the abyss.. either watchtower are right and it’s jesus or there are more than one angel with the key to the abyss.. if it is jesus the destroyer of souls it sounds like conan the destroyer.. from the research guide-abaddon, the angel of the abyss—who is he?.

at revelation 9:11, however, the word “abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” the corresponding greek name apollyon means “destroyer.” in the 19th century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to individuals such as emperor vespasian, muhammad, and even napoleon, and the angel was generally regarded as “satanic.” it should be noted, however, that at revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be god’s representative from heaven, and rather than being “satanic,” he binds and hurls satan into the abyss.

Vidqun

small horn/fierce king = Anglo-American world power

transgression causing desolation (disgusting thing causing desolation) = UN

I'm off to bed. We can take it up tomorrow if you don't mind.