Pathofthorns

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Posts by Pathofthorns

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  16

  Greater Knowledge Begets Greater Responsibility

  by IslandWoman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know this subject has been covered before but at the time it was i felt differently than i do now.

  i used to feel that all of us are responsible for our actions and i should not place greater blame on elders, circuit and district overseers and governing body members.

  i no longer feel that way.

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  Pathofthorns

  IW, this thread in particular I think has helped me to better come to terms with this subject. I realize it is not meaningful to try to justify or condemn these persons, but better to try to understand them.

  Joanna, I think your position is a particularly strong one, where you might have suffered hurt at the hands of these men and yet can remain objective enough to look at why they behave the way they do. It takes very strong and restrained people to do that.

  Therefore, I will still hold to my humanistic approach which is that, all people are imperfect and it's much easier to critiqe men in power then to actually have the power.

  I agree with this comment, but would add that critiquing men in power is a luxury of those that do not have it or choose not to have it. Those in power always do better when they consider criticisms than when they stifle them. This is a big problem with the WT, since criticism is often viewed as coming from people that have a "complaining spirit".

  IW, I have not been to Patterson btw. I found your thoughts on the "WT fountain" very interesting.

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  20

  A message from the UK re: 9/11

  by Adam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12188969&method=full&siteid=50143

  this is precicely how i feel and i would only add a smattering of curse words to the text.

  but then again, it was written by one of our bretheren across the pond and they're a little more understated than us yanks.

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  Pathofthorns

  Adam, I agree for the most part with your last comments to me. Going through the UN was a wise move for the US and I hope they continue to respect that arrangement.

  There needs to be found a happy medium between isolationism and meddling.

  I also agree with this statement. America must balance their global interests and "meddling" with the increased risk to Americans at home and around the world from possible backlashes. Like I said earlier, hopefully 9/11 will help them pay more attention to getting that delicate balance right.

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  29

  What to do with those who abuse kids??

  by JT in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  i'm sitting here in the serverroom freezing my buns off and the issue of the child abuser and what to do with him or her was being kicked around.

  we got the standard shot the bastards in the head etc,.

  should they get any treatment at all or should they just be shot?.

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  Pathofthorns

  I don't know what realistic and ethical options exist. Killing these people would be considered unethical by most countries. Locking them up for life would only be feasible in certain instances where the gravity of the crime would warrant that.

  But releasing these people back into general society after they have served their sentence does not protect society from these people who are often certain to repeat their crimes. And you can't punish people for what they *may* or even *probably* will do.

  I have no answer to the question posed and I think society has yet to come up with the perfect answer. If some sort of therapy/punishment like in the movie "a clockwork orange" existed, then I would think that would be interesting.

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  20

  A message from the UK re: 9/11

  by Adam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12188969&method=full&siteid=50143

  this is precicely how i feel and i would only add a smattering of curse words to the text.

  but then again, it was written by one of our bretheren across the pond and they're a little more understated than us yanks.

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  Pathofthorns

  (contrary to the statements by Pathofthorns who apparently doens't watch the news)

  I do try to avoid news put out by American media where at all possible, but I doubt that is what you meant.

  Also, no one is saying that Americans deserved 9/11. I think many do feel though that there is a refusal of the American government to examine ways of making themselves less of a target by re-examining their foreign policies that seem to upset so many countries. There seems to be a mentality "let's kill everyone that hates us" instead of asking themselves "why are we so disliked on the world scene and how can we improve our world image?"

  I don't know if I would use the terms "class and concern for innocent people", but I will agree that the world is "lucky" that America has exercised some restraint. But more than that, America is also better off for their restraint. If world politics didn't restrain George Bush from going to war, he would have done so long ago. Exactly what ties have been proven between Iraq and 9/11 anyway?

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  30

  Upset

  by Vivamus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am like an emotional screw up.

  i am like a 17 year old with no ability to take harsh words in.

  they upset me.

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  Pathofthorns

  I didn't 100% understand what you were saying, but I do know that you cannot please everyone all the time. And walking on eggshells with some people only satisfies them temporarily. Eventually you will disappoint no matter what you do.

  In my opinion, we all do the best we can to accomodate and if that is not good enough, then those who demand too much will be very lonely people.

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  42

  Screwing up folks lives

  by JT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is an amplification and adjustment in understanding of what appears in the watchtower of november 15, 1974, pages 703-704, and of february 15, 1978, pages 30-32. those who acted on the basis of the knowledge they had at the time are not to be criticized.

  nor would this affect the standing of a person who in the past believed that a mates perverted sexual conduct within marriage amounted to porneia and, hence, obtained a divorce and is now remarried.

  with this one little footnote in the wt it wiped out folks very lives- notice they refer to such a major doctrinal shift as an "amplification and adjustment in understanding".

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  Pathofthorns

  ... and they wonder why we are all so angry?

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  16

  Greater Knowledge Begets Greater Responsibility

  by IslandWoman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know this subject has been covered before but at the time it was i felt differently than i do now.

  i used to feel that all of us are responsible for our actions and i should not place greater blame on elders, circuit and district overseers and governing body members.

  i no longer feel that way.

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  Pathofthorns

  The "knowledge" I was speaking about was for the most part knowledge of mistreatment of brothers and sisters. This I have come to feel is far worse than any doctrinal problems or organizational misdeeds a brother in a responsible position may become aware of. I have come to feel that when someone sees a rather helpless and trusting disciple of Jesus and therefore of the Org., being treated in a despicable manner and God's name being trampled, and yet do nothing then what in God's name are they there for?! Better for them to have remained blind and not see because to see and then do nothing makes them at best impotent shepherds or worse cowards.

  IW, I can honestly say I think we see eye to eye on this subject. I really do think it is better when we can admit our past mistakes, however blind we were than it is to try to justify why we screwed up.

  I really can't defend or excuse the behavior of elders, but I find it helps me to try to understand why good men might have ended up selling out the way so many did.

  The environment inside the WT is so messed up that such an environment where sheep are continually trampled on for the sake of the organization is actually quite "normal" to them. The whole concept of "loyalty" is screwed up to the point that an elder sticking his neck out for someone is actually considered being "disloyal". The WT breeds cowards and men that cannot even reason on what is right and honorable behavior.

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  20

  A message from the UK re: 9/11

  by Adam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12188969&method=full&siteid=50143

  this is precicely how i feel and i would only add a smattering of curse words to the text.

  but then again, it was written by one of our bretheren across the pond and they're a little more understated than us yanks.

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  Pathofthorns

  That's a pretty weak piece of writing imo. George Bush simply blew alot of world sympathy in the last year by talking like an idiot regarding Iraq and by revealing his contempt for the world community by his unwillingness to act as part of it.

  American supremacy in the world has not been healthy and I'm looking forward to seeing what moderating influences increased relationships between China and Russia will have.

  America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic.

  Statements like this just make me laugh because they omit any negative reasons why people don't like America. They are pure propaganda. There are many countries that fit the above statement, but they are not hated to the extreme degree America is. I wonder why?

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  16

  Greater Knowledge Begets Greater Responsibility

  by IslandWoman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know this subject has been covered before but at the time it was i felt differently than i do now.

  i used to feel that all of us are responsible for our actions and i should not place greater blame on elders, circuit and district overseers and governing body members.

  i no longer feel that way.

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  Pathofthorns

  IW, this is a subject that is so difficult. I feel very much like you on the matter and yet the arguments that inevitably get presented from those with a different perspective are very good too.

  I do know that if I come down to strongly on elders that remained elders in spite of things that should have made them resign, I should also condemn myself as a publisher that never left as soon as I should have.

  It is funny too, sometimes it seems former elders are not so different in xjw circles than when they were active elders with JWs and this sometimes leaves me smiling because now the playingfield is level. I see them as greater victims than I was. Everyone that climbed the JW ladder higher than I, was simply a greater victim imo.

  And when we talk of greater knowledge bringing greater accountability, I don't believe those that rose higher in the organization really had substancially more knowledge in a significant way than the rest. I can say that while elders may have seen more, they had to be more blind than most to have risen to that position in the first place. And from where we sit now, whatever knowledge they thought they had is nothing to what we now understand and appreciate.

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  26

  I missed you all. My pants are wet with my tears

  by FrankyFourVests in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i used to post here as naeblis but left a while back to take a bit of a break.

  i've been enamoured with the name frankiefourvests lately (my great uncle frank was famous for his multiple vests) so decided to make a new username.

  simon you may disable my old account at your leisure (pronounced lessure out of respect for his english slurring of our language!

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  Pathofthorns

  Welcome back man. You have been missed. Shake the place up a bit.

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