Posts by flamegrilled

43

Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article

by Perry in

i just skimmed the titled article on jw.org and once again the watchtower is misdirecting:.

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20150301/jesus-death-and-resurrection/ .

they try and make the old case that jesus saves us from being destroyed at armageddon.

flamegrilled

@Cofty

Perry - Your illustration of the young man who had committed a crime worthy of 22 years in jail is bullshit.
You approve of billions of good men, women and children being tortured for all eternity for simply being rational enough to reject your particular set of superstitions.

First of all your very first statement is not indicative of someone who has any room in their mind to reason on something. Both paragraphs are constructed in such a conceited way as to be self-condemning. I won't break it down, and this is not in support of whatever Perry believes about hell because I simply don't know. But if I'm not mistaken you considered yourself rational when you previously believed in what you now label as "superstitions".

Were you rational back then?

Note that I'm not asking if you were mistaken. I'm asking if you were rational. If not then what makes you think that you are rational now?

Your air of superiority is clearly built upon your conviction that you are rational, and that people like Perry and me are not. But it's a curious thing to self-examine and identify when one crosses the line from irrationality to rationality and back again - especially since it is largely based upon self-assessment, or endorsement from those who you choose to identify with. Your window for objective assessment is actually pretty small when you adopt the type of rhetoric that has become your signature style.

FG

68

Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

by EdenOne in

i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

flamegrilled

God speed to you EdenOne. I agree that the road would be difficult and many have tried before, but I also feel that no other long-standing tolerance of bad group/human/social behaviour changed overnight. They all had to start somewhere and gain momentum.

I have very limited knowledge of US or European law. Nevertheless if a case were to be presented I have a gut feel that it would hang on some other unrelated precedent that is already undergoing change. One that might be closely related is protection of individuals rights against bullying. This has thankfully received a lot of attention in recent times as social media has elevated the act of bullying beyond something that it used to be e.g. physical and verbal abuse in the privacy of a school play area. It seems to me that the law is recognizing the reach of “group-think” to result in a damaging act. And ultimately that is what is at stake here.

The problem is that nobody can force person A to talk to person B. That would be a violation of person A's rights. Therefore nobody can stop any individual from shunning someone else and try to bring the legal system to bear on it. I believe that is the reason that no claims against shunning policies by any religions will succeed in the ways that they have been previously presented.

Only if a serious libel suit can be established will the person win (e.g. Olin Moyle). But that is a libel issue and does not set any precedent for ruling against the shunning process itself.

If however a case could be built upon the idea that shunning is a form of bullying – not by those who actually shun – but by those who encourage it to happen against an individual on a group basis – I could see some different dynamics coming into play.

For example if a person posts something defamatory on Facebook which results in people who have no first hand knowledge of the facts treating the victim in such a way as to hurt them, then I reckon that there would be some grounds against the poster.

Why is JW DF'ing different? They argue that they have the right to expel from their membership, and this is true (and a huge hurdle). But if that expulsion is based upon the actions of the bully (the three men in the JC) and the remaining participants in the bullying (all other JWs) are only acting on hearsay, and it is damaging to the individual, then what is the difference between that and the FB bully?

It's just a thought process that has come to mind, and maybe others have tried to legally tread this path before. I don't know. But it's all I can contribute for now.

FG

22

WTBS Canada received almost $9 million from cong. donations in 2013

by Richard_I in

jw
friends

just saw this on the ex-jw subreddit.

on opencharity.ca, you can view wtbs canada's financial info and in 2013 they received almost $9 million in donations.

you can even see how much some congregations gave.

flamegrilled

united way of greater Toronto gave the branch $14909 last year?

I would also love to know how this can be. I've heard United Way put down by so many people within the org - from CO's to elders to rank & file, either on the basis of supposed religious affiliation or just being a poor example of charity. How on earth did they get $15K from them???

27

This idea might not be new, but does a website like this exist?

by ILoveTTATT in

jw
friends

i am deeply upset every time there's someone in the news who has died because of the stupid and immoral blood doctrine.. i would like to make a website documenting every single instance of a news report of someone dying from lack of a blood transfusion, and to keep track of it.

that would give some data on the real and current incidence of deaths due to the blood transfusion doctrine.. is there already a website like that?.

.

flamegrilled

I applaud the intention completely, but I fear that it can never have any real value.

The % of cases in which the lack of blood treatment is the fully proven cause of death would be close to zero I think.

The listings in the database would have to figure out how much of a part the policy played in the outcome. This would be so subjective if it included an honest representation of all the variables it would be hard to figure out the real impact of JW policy. I think that is the underlying problem that Shilmer, AJWRB and others have consistently faced in trying to represent the facts.

To be meaningful the database would also have to include ALL the outcomes for refusals of treatment - even the positive ones - and I think this data would be impossible to gather. If you disagree with this last statement then bear in mind that if you take the risk to reject any form of blood then there may be an increased chance of reduced complications if you survive. I think this is generally accepted.

Don't get me wrong. I am firmly against the JW blood policy being enforced on its members and I really wish the impact were measurable in some significant way. But it is simply not like that.

This is what allows the GB to keep maintaining the pressure under the radar. If the impact was truly known then it would be much harder for them to hide their convoluted policies.

If someone could show me where I am wrong I would consider donating time to research this and contributing to the project.

FG

48

Genuine repentance - if you can fake that you'll avoid getting disfellowshipped

by slimboyfat in

to paraphrase a well known saying.

is it true, in a judicial committee, if you can fake repentance, then they are likely to let you off being disfellowshipped, almost regardless of the "severity" of the sin involved?

can former elders and perhaps victims of the process shed light on the matter?

flamegrilled

Number of factors since OP.

Elders' school since then has strongly suggested an interpretation of repentance as sometimes being unobtainable if they have wandered too far off the path. This is regardless of the theatrics that they may display at the JC (even if genuine).

It makes the whole "no automatic disfellowshipping" statement in the KS book a mockery, since there sometimes is NO way to avoid DF according to the standard they set.

They also impress the order of how much weight they attach to the following as:

1) Protecting Jehovah's name (67%)

2) Protecting the congregation (32.5%)

3) Helping the individual (0.5%)

Okay, so the % are made up by me, but the order is not, and depending on the commitee the % may not be far off either.

When Jesus gave the parable of leaving the 99 sheep to recover the lost 1 he probably never forsaw the "better" theocratic arrangement to come.

73

Active JW's and JW Lurkers- Especially JW Defenders and Believers: A Few Questions For You

by OnTheWayOut in

while there are not too many currently defending the watchtower in this discussion forum, it happens from time to time.

and quite often, there may be new people and lurkers reading these discussions.

i just wanted you to ponder these questions.

flamegrilled

C'mon. The internet is the internet. The OP is ridiculous. Who's it aimed at? Those who are JWs and are reading this obviously are open minded enough not to be restrained by a stupid man-made directive. And the rest of JWs are not here. So what's left to answer?

300

ALERT: NEW LAWSUIT settlement - $13 MILLION

by Watchtower-Free in

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135m-awarded-to-bible-teacher-gonzalo-campos-alleged-abuse-victim-jose-lopez-281031832.html.

(published thursday, oct 30, 2014).

thursday, oct 30, 2014 updated at 11:58 pm pdt.

flamegrilled

I would like to express my thanks to Barbara for making the court documents available. I was interested to read them and before I found this thread I tried to get them from the San Diego court website. It was a pain but I finally found how to do it, but then I couldn't figure out which ones would be best to give attention to. So I added several to my shopping cart that sounded like they might be of interest and found that my bill would have already amounted to over $150 to read just those few.

Then I found Barbara's links. And now I have them all to read. We should recognize how vaulable this information is for those who want to confirm the facts of the matter and not just get soundbites from news reports.

I for one am changing my opinion in a radical way. I have previously rationalized some of the mistakes made by the org, and the elders at a local level, but so far just on reading two of the court documents I feel completely different about what is going on.

I can now see that the determination to protect an organization has completely trumped any basic human decency, never mind about genuine Christian morality.

Whilst I recognize that this is still a moral minefield I do feel the need to recant some of the apologetic things I posted on other websites in the past.

I was wrong. And I am sorry. I wish I could find some of those old threads to post personal apologies, but I can't so I'll just offload here for now.

FG

33

Sleep Paralysis - YOUR EXPERIENCES

by Black Man in

jw
friends

so what have been your experiences with sleep paralysis?

any connection to astral projection?

this has interested me recently as i used to have sleep paralysis quite often years ago.

flamegrilled

I've experienced SP pretty much all my life. I also dream very vividly almost all the time. Sometimes i have lucid dreams in which I act as an explorer of what is possible. I can confirm that I dream in vivid color. I can feel acute pain in dreams that is not present when I awake. I can be free of pain even though going to sleep and waking up I might actually have a particular pain. I can see incredible detail in objects - things can seem more vivid than real life. Examining the veins of leaves of trees seems to be one I do often. I can speak foreign languages fluently in some dreams (although I suspect that it's probably some words I know combined with a fluent form of jibberish). I compose or hear some amazing music in dreams, although I have to really write down a few motifs soon after waking to capture any of it. I can smell things in dreams - smells that are not possible to have been present in the environment in which I was sleeping. People in my dreams can surprise me by things they say - for instance asking me a question to which I do not know the answer - and then they tell me the answer (but how can that be if everything is generated in my own brain?). Of course sometimes I can fly or jump long distances too. Those dreams are awesome when I can get a good measure of control over them.

On the original topic I get regular sleep paralysis and it never ceases to completely freak me out. I often think I might never get out of it. It also happens several levels deep "Inception" style. I get out of my sleep paraysis only to find myself being paralized in another dream. Those are the worst because I have no idea how many levels I might have to go through to get out. 3 is the maximum I can recall, but even after 2 you think it's going to go on forever. I think I see the room around me in perfect detail, but sometimes I might hear a person coming up the stairs and I can do nothing about it in my frozen state. Those are really bad.

Interestingly I have for a very long time had repeating fream about seeing strange phenomina in the sky. Things start off fairly normal, and then spacecraft or unidentified object appear, or distant brilliant galaxies appear to close in on the earth. I think Matt 24:29,30 got deeply lodged in subconscious a long time ago.

For all the scary stuff I wouldn't trade my dreams for anything. It's like a whole other existence at night that I look forward to.

FG

15

Special Meeting at Bethel by GB just before Annual Meeting

by notsurewheretogo in

i see there is a special meeting held by the gb at bethel a week before the annual meeting.. .

wonder what that will be about?.

.

flamegrilled

@Tim Hooper ... priceless!

39

I HAD MY BICYCLE STOLEN!

by Terry in

jw
friends

three months ago i had to stop driving my car.

it wouldn't pass inspection and it would cost about $3k to get it up to par.. well, it's a 98 honda accord with about 179 thousand miles on it, what did i expect?.

.. i decided i would switch to riding a bicycle instead.. it has worked out fairly well.. i put about 10 miles a day on it.

flamegrilled

Bummer! Sorry to hear that. I know the feeling as it happened to me but a little differently. I had an expensive bike chained up. Thief stole the saddle only and not wanting to ride home without it I left it chained that evening which was a stupid mistake. (I had had a couple of pints which may have impaired my decision making ability.) They came back and took the whole thing later.

When I replaced it I started to do what jgnat's son does if I had any doubts about the area. But to snatch it right in front of you ... I think I'd have got caught out the same.