I was thinking about this the other day too DD. I have come to the conclusion that God led the Magians to Jesus too. Obviously Mary and Joseph were dirt poor and even though Jesus didn't put any store on riches in later life, the gifts that were given to him as an infant would have helped the family enormously in bringing him up. The bible also tells us that he had his own house in Capernaum, down by the lake shore. Even though it also says he had nowhere to lay his head, I guess this meant while he was travelling around. He had a fine garment that even the Romans fought over once they had executed him. Also he had money to give to the poor. His best friends Lazarus, Mary and Martha also were quite well off (going by the perfume Mary put on his feet).
tornapart
JoinedPosts by tornapart
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12
IT'S THE MOST WONDERFUL TIME OF THE YEAR!!!
by DATA-DOG injust getting a jump on the holiday season!!
i figure that i will post this every year for discussion.
these were my observations when learning ttatt.
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21
Interview with an Apostate: Cofty
by cofty intell us a little about yourself and your family.. my wife and i are fortunate to live in a lovely little country cottage northumberland in northern england.
we have two children who have both grown up and left home.
our son is a physical training instructor in the royal air force and our daughter works in the historic city of york.. were you a born in or a convert?.
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tornapart
Cofty, I enjoyed reading that! I envy your little place in the corner of the world, it sounds delightful! I've been engrossed in Robson Green's Northumberland programme on ITV. It's somewhere I've never been but would love to visit one day!
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Interview with a 'non-Apostate' : Tornapart
by tornapart intell us a little about yourself and your family.. in my middle years with grown/married children and grandchildren.
hubby is an elder.. .. were you a born in or a convert?.
.. are your parents / family jws?.
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tornapart
Yes! Thanks guys... I know there are a lot of us in the same or similar position!
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tornapart
Caedes: I disagree that a foetus is a living human being.
So when does it become one? I had a scan at 11 weeks pregnant. The baby was fully formed, arms and legs waving around as he danced in the womb. He was 2". The characteristics he displayed at the time on the scan carried on throughout the pregnancy and after birth. To me at 11 weeks gestation, he was a real little person.
I think the holocaust comparison is not wrong to make. Many babies particularly in India and China where males are favoured are aborted because they are the wrong sex. babies are aborted if they are found to be handicapped in some way (despite the fact that many disabled children go on to live meaningful lives). Look at the man Nick Vujicic for example!! Hitler wiped out people because they were disabled, mentally ill, wrong race etc... where's the difference?
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Interview with a 'non-Apostate' : Tornapart
by tornapart intell us a little about yourself and your family.. in my middle years with grown/married children and grandchildren.
hubby is an elder.. .. were you a born in or a convert?.
.. are your parents / family jws?.
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tornapart
Tell us a little about yourself and your family.
In my middle years with grown/married children and grandchildren. Hubby is an elder.
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Were you a born in or a convert?
Born-in
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Are your parents / family JWs?
Yes
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How many generations have been JWs?
Parents converted in the early 50's
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Did you hold any position in the WTS? (MS, Elder etc...)
No, as I'm a female. Did regular pioneer for a few years in my teens
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Did you *really* believe in the bible, in spirits (angels, demons)?
Yes, I always have and still do. I remember sitting in meetings as soon as I'd learned to read pouring over the bible and being engrossed in the stories. Meetings themselves went in one ear and out the other but I loved reading the bible. Although I believe in demons, they never held any fear for me.
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Did you get baptised? When and why?
In my mid teens because I loved God. That still stands for me. It was pre the 'loyalty to the Org' question. For me baptism meant in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. No one and nothing else!
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What was the initial trigger that made you start questioning things?
The overlapping generation doctrine at the 2010 DC. I just could not get my head round it. Before that I'd always questioned many things, misplaced prophecies, certain teachings, many things didn't sit well with me regarding some doctrines. I'd always felt very uncomfortable with the 'Faithful Slave' teaching.
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Where did you find information? Internet sites? Books?
First place Wikipedia. Looking up some things about JW teachings I came across Ray Franz. I'd never heard of him before and I was intrigued. I read up about him and discovered he'd written a book (CoC). I was curious and I got it and I read it in 3 days. In those three days I woke up completely! That book is dynamite! Talk about discovering the 'Man behind the Curtain'!
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How difficult or painful was the process of leaving?
I am in the process. A long, slow fade. It is very difficult!
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Was it a big dramatic exit or a careful quiet fade?
See above. I want to go quietly with as little fuss as possible. Not easy when your hubby is an elder (and on the service committee).
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Did you convince anyone else to leave with you?
Not yet. I live in hope.
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How were your family relations affected by your decision?
They are obviously upset about it. But I think they will get used to it eventually.... I hope.
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Were you or are you still being shunned by those who didn't leave?
N/A
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How long have you now been out?
Mentally- 2 years exactly. Pysically, unfortunately, still in.
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Was there anything you looked forward to doing when you left?
Just enjoying life without feeling guilty!
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What are you most proud of achieving since you left?
Standing up to my family and telling them how I really feel.
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Is there anything you miss about life in the congregation?
I do miss the social side but not too much. My real friends are still in my life.
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Red pill or blue pill? Do you regret waking up to reality at all?
Red!....I think! LOL I'm glad I know what I know but it is hard. It was definitely easier living in ignorance. I wouldn't want to go back to that though.
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Did you become an atheist or transfer your faith elsewhere?
My beliefs now are simply christian. Non religious. I feel closer to God when I'm outside in the fresh air with nature than in a building. My faith is simple and personal.
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How do you now feel about religion in general?
Hate it. Religion is oppressive, destructive, guilt inducing and harmful.
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Do you feel any guilt celebrating xmas or birthdays or doing any other JW "no-no"s?
Haven't done anything yet because of still in family. Doubt it'll ever come up.
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Have you attended any face-to-face meetups of ex-JWs?
No.
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Describe your circle of friends - mostly other ex-JWs or regular people?
Over the last 10 years, even as a full in JW I collected a large number of internet friends, mainly non-JW through forums etc. (mutual interests). Quite a few of them I have gone on to meet in real life. A handful becoming close friends. However my closest friends are childhood JW friends still.
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Do you tell people about your JW past?
I have done to one or two I feel close to.
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Do you feel animosity or pity toward current JWs?
No. Only the institution. Mainly I feel sorry for them.
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How do you respond to witnesses when they call at your door?
Invite them in and offer a drink LOL
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Storm the barricades or tend to the wounded? (do you favor activism or support)
I favour support. It's good to have the info there but what awakening JWs need more than anything is help and support from others that have been there and gone through it. Everyone has their own way of dealing with what they've been through. Knowing you're not alone is the best therapy.
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What do you think is the most effective approach to reaching people still in?
Trying to reach the authentic self. Dropping little thoughts that appeal to that authentic person. You really have to know the person well to be able to do this. Then to back off when the cult persona takes over.
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Do you think the WTS can or should be destroyed, will continue on as-is or grow / change?
I hope to see it change, especially because of my loved ones who may never leave. If it softens up over many issues it would be great. But I can't ever see that happening. Who knows?
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How has your life been impacted by your JW past?
I don't know who I really am. I'm trying to discover myself.It's an interesting process.
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Are there things in your life you blame the WTS for?
A few. But I mainly blame myself. I'd always prided myself in being a thinker. Now I realise I was just plain gullible. It's a bitter pill.
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JW upbringing - a protection or a curse?
Protection from certain things. I'm glad to have lived by certain standards. A curse in other things, like not being able to be truly free to be myself.
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How do you fill your time now it's not filled with meetings and field service?
Staying in bed, reading. Not a lot different to be honest. I never did that much in the first place!
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Do you still have an interest in JW beliefs and doctrines?
JW beliefs and doctrines are poles apart from bible doctrines. So, no.
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How much of your time is still spent on JW related matters?
Only what has to be done to keep the peace and fly under the radar. Very little.
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What do you think of the ex-JW community?
Mixed. A hotch potch of humanity! Very interesting!
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Do you see yourself still being associated with the ex-JW community in 5 or 10 years time?
Probably, maybe to a lesser degree. It depends on how I've been able to move on.
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Do you fear the future?
Only that I'm afraid one day they will DF me!
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What advice would you give to anyone starting the journey of leaving the WTS?
Read, read, read and don't do anything rash until you have really thought it through!!
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What would you change in your life if you could go back and talk to yourself?
I don't know. Life is what it is and what you make it. I have no real regrets. I have a wonderful family that I love very much and that's the most important thing to me. I try to live in the present and keep a positive attitude. Looking back with regret doesn't change things. I need to look forward.
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Do you have any regrets about life since you left?
No
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Can we read your life-story anywhere? (links to online or books)
No. I'm a very private person. This is as much as I'll ever share.
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21
No longer a former JW, I am now a Human Being
by AllTimeJeff inlurkers, debaters, haters, lovers, the lost, the found, and the misplaced.
it's been a while, and i wanted to pop in.
the point isn't to agree.
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tornapart
Excellent post Jeff! Thought provoking, heartfelt and very encouraging! Thanks!
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tornapart
Unstop... I found this very interesting. Think it's along the lines of what you're thinking. Have you seen it?
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1000 posts in 6 weeks - I have got a problem :(
by KateWild inthis is what my 1000th post was.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/267869/3/boeing-747s-and-other-misunderstandings-about-evolution.
beer and museums, loving that idea!-cofty.
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tornapart
At that rate you'll be on approx. 10,000 posts this time next year Sam LOL
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Are you a coward?
by Bugbear inactive jw:s spending their time with the preaching work, are often aware of that their message does not comply with simple scientific facts.
they know that evolution has taken place, that the timetable of the bible is not correct, and that most of the bibles content, are tales, that the original text has been rewritten, and rewritten, and misunderstood, and rewritten (except for a fragment p54, which is from 300 a.c.) still they go out preaching, trying to find possible converts to the teaching of the gb.. often they try to do as little as possible, one or two hours per month, talking to their children, or old parents.
this to satisfy the elder who is responsible for the report list to the society.. but are these people not responsible for promulgate a lie.
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tornapart
Sorry Bugbear! And thanks for that, I think I am just very touchy about this subject and perhaps over sensitive. It is an extremely hard situation to be in and I would so love to be free of it all. My children are all grown and of course are all 'in'. Hubby is an elder.
It's been two years for me so far and at least my immediate family all know how I feel. They still expect me to go to meetings and FS though. I would love to just give it all up! It would be so freeing. They see the meetings as spiritual refreshment. I see them as stress inducing and nauseating.
At the moment I'm reading as much as I can, personal experiences of those trapped inside fundamentalist religions and their escape. Self help books. Inspirational books. Just to get some positivity and encouragement. At the moment I'm reading the book Boundaries. To try and see what I can say/do to help me with the fading and let others know what to expect of me and what I will/will not allow.
I'm glad you finally got free! And I hope it doesn't take me 10 years! though I'm not holding my breath...
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Are you a coward?
by Bugbear inactive jw:s spending their time with the preaching work, are often aware of that their message does not comply with simple scientific facts.
they know that evolution has taken place, that the timetable of the bible is not correct, and that most of the bibles content, are tales, that the original text has been rewritten, and rewritten, and misunderstood, and rewritten (except for a fragment p54, which is from 300 a.c.) still they go out preaching, trying to find possible converts to the teaching of the gb.. often they try to do as little as possible, one or two hours per month, talking to their children, or old parents.
this to satisfy the elder who is responsible for the report list to the society.. but are these people not responsible for promulgate a lie.
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tornapart
You get the judgemenatalism from the inside because you are not 'doing enough' and are therefore spiritually weak. You get the judgementalism from the outside because you are doing too much and should 'man up', tell everyone what you really think and risk losing every single person you have ever loved.
Guess what? I feel angry. Angry at them and angry at people like you. Then to put us on the same level as Nazis?!! For your information, I've not 'dragged anyone into this cult', in fact I'm trying to get my family to see it for what it is and it's a long drawn out process. I'm not leaving without them and I don't see this as being cowardly!!
Right now after your comments I feel just like my username... thanks for that.