Posts by peacefulpete

13

Daniel 2:42 , is it really unstable democratic governments?

by raymond frantz in

in its latest front page article titled “political turmoil that fulfills bible prophecy”, jw.org once again attempts to connect current world events with the vision found in daniel chapter 2, particularly the image composed of various metals.

their interpretation of daniel 2:42 is laid out in the following paragraph: "the feet of the image are made ‘partly of iron and partly of clay,’ a combination that is inherently weak.

(daniel 2:42) today, the power of both the united states and britain is weakened by elements within their own societies.

peacefulpete

Don't drag me into your xenophobic prejudices. Nothing I said supports your comment.

13

Daniel 2:42 , is it really unstable democratic governments?

by raymond frantz in

in its latest front page article titled “political turmoil that fulfills bible prophecy”, jw.org once again attempts to connect current world events with the vision found in daniel chapter 2, particularly the image composed of various metals.

their interpretation of daniel 2:42 is laid out in the following paragraph: "the feet of the image are made ‘partly of iron and partly of clay,’ a combination that is inherently weak.

(daniel 2:42) today, the power of both the united states and britain is weakened by elements within their own societies.

peacefulpete

Daniel 2:43 "mixing of seed of mankind" is describing marriage alliances and the diverse ethnic makeup of the empire. The sheer span of the Hellenistic empire necessitated alliances to a degree not seen before. Many translations reflect this. Daniel 2:43 - Bible Gateway

These alliances had limited value after Alexander as the divisions and infighting continued. I can't help but also detect a bit of ethnic bigotry, the Jewish purity laws about intermarriage of the races may be in the background. The writer may have assumed the intermarrying was itself a weakness.

13

Daniel 2:42 , is it really unstable democratic governments?

by raymond frantz in

in its latest front page article titled “political turmoil that fulfills bible prophecy”, jw.org once again attempts to connect current world events with the vision found in daniel chapter 2, particularly the image composed of various metals.

their interpretation of daniel 2:42 is laid out in the following paragraph: "the feet of the image are made ‘partly of iron and partly of clay,’ a combination that is inherently weak.

(daniel 2:42) today, the power of both the united states and britain is weakened by elements within their own societies.

peacefulpete

The phrase that stood out for me was:

This layered depth explains why a single vision (mosaic) can speak coherently to Maccabean martyrs, to first-century Christians groaning under Nero, and to believers still awaiting the last act of history. Far from being embarrassed by successive applications, Catholic theology expects them.

That is the very point, successive generations of readers have adapted/applied the book to themselves. Each anticipating being the 'holy ones' that see the end. All have been disappointed.

13

Daniel 2:42 , is it really unstable democratic governments?

by raymond frantz in

in its latest front page article titled “political turmoil that fulfills bible prophecy”, jw.org once again attempts to connect current world events with the vision found in daniel chapter 2, particularly the image composed of various metals.

their interpretation of daniel 2:42 is laid out in the following paragraph: "the feet of the image are made ‘partly of iron and partly of clay,’ a combination that is inherently weak.

(daniel 2:42) today, the power of both the united states and britain is weakened by elements within their own societies.

peacefulpete

Like always, I reread what I posted and find errors.

The little horn/king that subdues 3 of 10 other horns of chapt 7 is typically seen as the same figure as the little horn/king who comes from 4 horns in chapter 8. (I said chapt 9 earlier.) The original application of chapt 7 to Ptolemy Soter may better explain subtle differences like that. The complicated textual history of the book might be somewhat resolved with the above suggestion of chapt 7 and 8 originally coming from different periods with the material in 8-12 consciously emulating 2-7.

Also, famously the writer (or contributor) of Revelation identified the 4 Danielic beasts rolled together as (Rome on 7 hills).

13

Daniel 2:42 , is it really unstable democratic governments?

by raymond frantz in

in its latest front page article titled “political turmoil that fulfills bible prophecy”, jw.org once again attempts to connect current world events with the vision found in daniel chapter 2, particularly the image composed of various metals.

their interpretation of daniel 2:42 is laid out in the following paragraph: "the feet of the image are made ‘partly of iron and partly of clay,’ a combination that is inherently weak.

(daniel 2:42) today, the power of both the united states and britain is weakened by elements within their own societies.

peacefulpete

The collection of Danielic works in the Bible is a textbook case of the prediction-disappointment-reinterpretation pattern. There is a case to be made that the Aramaic material in chapts. 2-7 were collected/written as a unit around a 150 years earlier than the Hebrew section, chapts. 8-12, with which it was merged into the collection most of us are familiar with. If this is a correct hypothesis, the little king of chapt 7 was identified with Ptolemy 1 Soter (Savior) originally. He was every bit as hated as the Later Antiochus Epiphanes. His imposing of a pagan calendar and his conquering Jerusalem on the Sabbath earned him special animus among pious Jews. This gives the scheme of Babylon/gold-Media/silver-Persia/Bronze-Greece/Iron-1 King from the ten toes/horn arises to: " speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws." This is Ptolemy Soter.

When the anticipated divine intervention failed to materialize, the work waited for another moment in history to appear to be relevant. The author/s of the Hebrew section appear to have sprung off the style and theme of chapters 2 and 7 when faced with the new enemy in the person of the Seleucid Antiochus Epiphanes. The Hasmonean rebellion inspired deep hopes of restoration to enduring independence. This adaptation/emulation of the theme and style of the earlier material offers an explanation for detail discrepancies between the descriptions of the 'little king' of chapt 7 and 9, as well as the obvious language difference. In this interpretive scheme Ptolemy Soter is eclipsed by Antiochus.

The writer of 4Q552,553 "4 Trees/Kingdoms" appears to have partly anticipated/paralleled this reinterpretation. There the Medes and Persians were merged under the Median banner and the 3rd kingdom was the Ptolemaic with the 4th the Seleucid.

When the anticipated divine intervention failed to materialize again, the work again waited a hundred years or so (63BCE) for a moment to appear to be relevant. When the Romans under Pompey conquered Judea, (ironically as a result of the infighting between Hasmonean factions whose ancestors inspired or actually wrote chapts 8-12) the book again took on seeming importance. Pompey himself entered the Most Holy of the Temple, which naturally elicited fresh nationalistic and religious fervor among some. But for the next hundred years or so the book of Daniel was on the backburner.

This changed around the time of 66-70. The writer of 4 Ezra 2Esdras), living at the destruction of 70CE, describes the 4th beast of Daniel (11:40,12:11,12) as a multiheaded eagle.(taking advantage of the lack of specificity in Daniel). The eagle was the symbol of Rome. This new interpretation of the 4th beast as Rome 'was not revealed to Daniel your brother.' Tacitly admitting the interpretation was novel.

13

Daniel 2:42 , is it really unstable democratic governments?

by raymond frantz in

in its latest front page article titled “political turmoil that fulfills bible prophecy”, jw.org once again attempts to connect current world events with the vision found in daniel chapter 2, particularly the image composed of various metals.

their interpretation of daniel 2:42 is laid out in the following paragraph: "the feet of the image are made ‘partly of iron and partly of clay,’ a combination that is inherently weak.

(daniel 2:42) today, the power of both the united states and britain is weakened by elements within their own societies.

peacefulpete

The 4th Kingdom (using the standard 4 kingdom model) was Greece, the iron became weakened when it was divided into 'toes'. Remember the writer is focused upon Judea and the parade of powers that controlled it. The idea of reshuffling the kingdoms so that Roman empire would be the 4th occurred only after the failure of the predicted end. The rise of the Roman empire required fresh interpretations that disregarded the context.

65

Acts 20: 28 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's how this verse should read: .

take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .

peacefulpete

Boy, that's bad...."...you'll get no argument from anyone."

65

Acts 20: 28 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's how this verse should read: .

take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .

peacefulpete

If you are arguing that the NWT, being it claims to be a fairly literal translation, ought to have put 'son' in brackets, no gets no argument from anyone.

65

Acts 20: 28 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's how this verse should read: .

take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .

peacefulpete

The so-called “surprise” about the Holy Spirit’s active role in the appointment of overseers is....

What I said was, it was surprising that in the endless debate with Jws to interpret the last phrase of the passage, there is a silence about the animate role assigned the Holy Spirit. Your AI needs to read more carefully. The animate and semiautonomous roles of the Holy Spirit in Christian writings is a refinement of earlier roles assigned God's spirit, Name, Prescence, Angel, Wisdom or the Logos. Even as early as in Is. 63:9-11 (5th-4th century BCE) we find an 'Angel of his Presence' apparently also described as his 'Holy Spirit" being 'grieved'. These agents or hypostases of God are God but at the same time serve God.

65

Acts 20: 28 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's how this verse should read: .

take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .

peacefulpete

The grammar is somewhat ambiguous and as anyone who has researched it knows, translators have read the phrase through the theological lens they subscribe to. Some object to 'God' having blood, without qualifying it as belonging to the Christ man aspect of God and so render substantively. The JWs also object on the ground of denying the divinity of Christ whose blood purchases the flock. Others have no issue with reading the phrase attributively with the assumption that readers are clever enough to recognize the Christ aspect of God was referred to. Acts 20:28 - Bible Gateway

What is rather surprising is the silence regarding the Holy Spirit being said to have done the appointing of overseers over God's church that was purchased with Christ's blood. However you wish to translate the last phrase, the writer is clearly assigning animate roles to 3 characters. No, this is not the Trinity, it is a rather clear expression of belief in divine agency (aka Second Power theology) manifest in multiple powerful figures.