Posts by peacefulpete

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

After posting I wished I had worded that differently. I realize that many times people post their beliefs and feelings without any desire for them to be analyzed from scientific or historical perspectives. I hope 'm getting better at appreciating that and leave people to their own while offering support if needed.

That said, threads like this were ostensibly about best evidence. If the question is about the extant beliefs among the Jewish community in the 1rst century, we can dispassionately discuss it. Unfortunately, that is almost impossible for someone with strong convictions that their beliefs and their historical view are the product of unfalsifiable revelation. If your motive is proselytization rather than sincere discussion, you are in the wrong place.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Sea Breeze...My participation here is for the purpose of discussing the theological development of late Judaism/ early Christianity. I am not arguing from a contrarian ideological stance. In fact, in the course of this discussion I have improved my understanding and adjusted my opinion. I'm not promoting anything other than fact checking.

The topic of the conception of human nature is also of interest. Start a thread about your views on this and we can peer into the history of the beliefs.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

A very similar scene is in Epistle of the Apostles (140-50CE)

3 In God, the Lord, the Son of God, do we believe, that he is the word become flesh: that of Mary the holy virgin he took a body, begotten of the Holy Ghost, not of the will (lust) of the flesh, but by the will of God: that he was wrapped in swaddling clothes in Bethlehem and made manifest, and grew up and came to ripe age, when also we beheld
13 Now that which he revealed unto us is this, which he spake: It came to pass when I was about . . . to come hither from the Father of all things, and passed through the heavens, then did I put on the wisdom of the Father, and I put on the power of his might. I was in heaven, and I passed by the archangels and the angels in their likeness, like as if I were one of them, among the princedoms and powers. I passed through them because I possessed the wisdom of him that had sent me. Now the chief captain of the angels, [is] Michael, and Gabriel and Uriel and Raphael followed me unto the fifth firmament . . . , for they thought in their heart that I was one of them; such power was given me of my Father. And on that day did I adorn the archangels with a wonderful voice . . . , so that they should go unto the altar of the Father and serve and fulfil the ministry until I should return unto him. And so wrought I the likeness by my wisdom; for I became all things in all, that I might praise the dispensation of the Father and fulfil the glory of him that sent me . . . and return unto him. . . .
14 For ye know that the angel Gabriel brought the message unto Mary. And we answered: Yea, Lord. He answered and said unto us: Remember ye not, then, that I said unto you a little while ago: I became an angel among the angels, and I became all things in all? We said unto him: Yea, Lord. Then answered he and said unto us: On that day whereon I took the form of the angel Gabriel, I appeared unto Mary and spake with her. Her heart accepted me, and she believed . . . , and I formed myself and entered into her body. I became flesh, for I alone was a minister unto myself in that which concerned Mary . . . in the appearance of the shape of an angel. For so must I needs . . . do. Thereafter did I return to my Father . . .

In the Ascension of Isaiah, the Christ descends through the levels of heaven undetected by taking on the forms of the angels in each level. Eventually he takes a body that appears human, is killed, frees those in sheol and returns triumphantly. There is a large section of obvious harmonizing Christian addition detailing his birth and time on earth. Now, here in this Epistle of the Apostles version Christ is explicitly identifying as the angel Gabriel (or impersonating him). He takes on any form able to become anyone. It's all an interesting study worthy of more time than I have.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Ascension of Isaiah

7:
21. And I fell on my face to worship him, but the angel who conducted me did not permit me, but said unto me: "Worship neither throne nor angel which belongs to the six heavens - for for this cause I was sent to conduct thee j- until I tell thee in the seventh heaven.
8:
4. And I said to the angel who conducted me: "What is this which I see, my Lord?"
5. And he said: "I am not thy lord, but thy fellow servant."
9:

6. And the second whom I saw was on he left of my Lord. And I asked: "Who is this?" and he said unto me: "Worship Him, for He is the angel of the Holy Spirit, who speaketh in thee and the rest of the righteous."

I suspect the Ascension of Isaiah is underappreciated as an early Christian work. Some have suggested it was a Jewish work redacted by a Christian much like Revelation. Anyway, the story is complex with many levels of angels and beings, the highest level 'angels' are worshipped, who then in turn worship the Christ, who then worships El most High.

It's a clear parallel to Revelation with the lower angel objecting to being referred to as Lord and directing worship to another.

(But note that Isaiah continues to do so, like John in Rev repeats his attempt to worship, which is odd. Perhaps the objection in Rev isn't an emendation but served an angelological purpose?)

Is the objection in Rev 19 and 22 parallel in that the lower angel's objecting is due to his station? Other greater angels are described in a much more theophanic manner in Revelation much like in the A of I, perhaps suggesting higher rank or as stand-ins for the Most High. I don't know.

The development of angels is a complicated and long process. They became characters in their own right in Jewish and Christian mythology, not just as emanations.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

I know I'm getting carried away, but nothing was on TV, lol. I found another interesting parallel. 2 Esdras 4

Then the angel that had been sent to me, whose name was Uriel, answered 2 and said to me, “Your understanding has utterly failed regarding this world, and do you think you can comprehend the way of the Most High?” 3 Then I said, “Yes, my lord.” And he replied to me, “I have been sent to show you...

(He then mirrors the Job sequence of demonstrating the ignorance of humans compared to God, then delivers an apocalyptic message of the timing of the end of time)

11 how, then, can your mind comprehend the way of the Most High?[c] And how can one who is already worn out by the corrupt world understand incorruption?”[d] When I heard this, I fell on my face[e
38 Then I answered and said, “But, O sovereign Lord, all of us also are full of ungodliness. 39 It is perhaps on account of us that the time of threshing is delayed for the righteous—on account of the sins of those who inhabit the earth.”

Here is an apocalyptic story an angel is sent by the Most High but is himself addressed as Sovereign Lord. Ezra is seen falling on his face.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

This story of the Great Angel in Joshuah 5 strikes me as a parallel:

13 And it came to pass when Joshua was in Jericho, that he looked up with his eyes and saw a man standing before him, and a drawn sword in his hand; and Joshua drew near and said to him, Art thou for us or on the side of our enemies?

14 And he said to him, I am now come, the chief captain of the host of the Lord.

15 And Joshua fell on his face upon the earth, and said to him, Lord, what commandest thou thy servant?

16 And the captain of the Lord's host said to Joshua, Loose thy shoe off thy feet, for the place whereon thou now standest is holy

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Also look at Rev 19 & 22 again. After the objection of John's attempt to worship the messengers, he directs him to worship God. The same word. But as it is, the text does appear awkward and confounding in light of modern Christain sensitivities. It seems to me that we have one of two options. This is an early adjustment to the controversial work in which an editor added the objection of the angel to refute the then objectionable worship of an angel of God or the original author/compiler was editing his source. If an early form of the text held the angel to be an emanation of God, (as I believe to be the case in other sections) the worship might have been perfectly acceptable to the writer. As I mentioned before many believe the work was a compilation of related Jewish apocalyptic scenes reworked by a Christian.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

That's what I meant by explaining away......

The semantic distinction you are clasping onto is sleight of hand. missing the identification of Jesus as Yahweh.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

I meant to address Heb 1:5 in a previous thread but forgot. Here again the author is mashing OT references to David (Psalm 2:7 and 2 Sam 7:14) and interpreted by some late 2nd temple era readers as Messianic. They are linked through key words and through the idea of sonship.

The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you...or again “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

Ask when this was said of Jesus in the Gospel narrative. According to Luke 3:22 in early western manuscripts and early patristic writings, it was at his baptism. This was the primary proof text for Adoptionists. Origen quotes the passage but argues the timeless nature of God means the begetting was timeless in subtle refutation. Later copyists simply altered the text to drop the begetting part to refute Docetism.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Philo’s Logos is the foundation for John’s Logos theology misinterprets...

Philo's writings represent a snapshot in theological development. He assumes his readers know what he is elaborating upon. The concepts were much older and pervasive than a single author. It is entirely possible the author of John never read Philo but was drawing from a larger milieu of thought.