Posts by peacefulpete

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

At some point anyone who studies the topic realizes that every translation is interpretive. I was just listening to a Mark Goodacre blog about his role in the NRSV translation. He observed issues with the finished product that resulted from the compartmentalization that occurs. Translators are assigned sections and sometimes they make different word choice. markgoodacre.org/podcasts/NTPod104.mp3

Setting aside that for the moment, the reality is that new translations are not reinventing the wheel. The fact is anyone with reference works and a selection of translations can create a new one without actually doing ANY translating. The WT did not have any highly qualified Hebrew or Greek scholars when they created the NWT. Nor did they really need any. I'm sure that is true now. They looked at options other translators had chosen and selected from among those or were inspired by them and used different word choice that even better fit their sectarian stance. The small adjustments actually requiring skillful proficiency with Hebrew/Greek that are suggested by new manuscript discoveries are very few. The 'scholarship' of the NWT (with a few sectarian exceptions) is actually the work of the many translators that came before.

The fact is JWs formulated their doctrine almost entirely before they created their own translation. That makes the point that sects (JWs, Christian Scientist, Pentecostal etc...) are arrived at through selective interpretation and proof texting primarily.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

You where the one arguing that your feelings and inner thoughts met the standard for objective truth/reality. As I said that is the domain of theoretical pure religion. It is when religion makes claims about objective reality such as charges of witchcraft or claims of history and biology, that they are now in competition with science and open to falsification. You can entertain any feelings or thoughts of jealousy and envy you wish but to accuse and prosecute the object of your jealousy you will need evidence. This is so far off topic.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

No one wants to pick up the topic of the Logos as sustainer of creation?

We can go down the rabbit hole of defining 'real' but as was said, the issue is objective reality. Surely no believer would wish their belief in God be equated with fantasy and illusion. Yet that seems to be the direction your argument is going. My fantasies may be 'real' to me but in any objective sense I do not have a relationship with Michelle Pheiffer. Nor did my love for my first-grade teacher have any 'real' basis. It was naive interpretation of biochemical reactions and wishful thinking. Do you wish us to equate your belief in God/s to be equated with fantasy?

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

And can't love or fear be intensely real with zero evidence of showing it?

Semantics. It can be real in a subjective sense. But love can also be an illusion if not positively evidenced, and fear be a product of false interpretation.

We are definitely entering the domain of phenomenology.

My feelings of hate fear or love are experiential 'realities' to me. The purest hypothetical religious forms share that domain, subjective experiential 'truths'. It is only when I make statements that involve objective realities that religion overreaches. Then the statements are forced to compete against the domains of science.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Something related but not discussed is the role the Logos played in sustaining creation, holding it together and keeping it from descending into chaos. The Wisdom literature featured that role, Wisdom dwelt with creation, kept the cycles in motion, the boundaries and limits in place. This flowed seamlessly through Philo's logos to the Christ.

Although she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; Wisdom 7

"The Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated." Philo, On the Creation of the World

"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. Heb 1:3

And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Col 1

It all goes back to the ancient cosmic struggle against chaos. Another huge topic.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Do love, fear and hate...hope and dread ...fall under the category of 'physical' or 'metaphysical'?

That question is loaded with semantics. All thoughts and feelings, no matter how ludicrous or misplaced, originate in the physical machinery of the mind. Yes, believing even supernatural thoughts and unjustified feelings is a physical process. But others the judging the credibility of those thoughts and feelings involves evidence. The man who thinks everyone is out to get him is judged as paranoid delusional unless there is some real evidence to support it. The difficulty is when the person themselves persists in delusion or finds others with similar delusions.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

After posting I wished I had worded that differently. I realize that many times people post their beliefs and feelings without any desire for them to be analyzed from scientific or historical perspectives. I hope 'm getting better at appreciating that and leave people to their own while offering support if needed.

That said, threads like this were ostensibly about best evidence. If the question is about the extant beliefs among the Jewish community in the 1rst century, we can dispassionately discuss it. Unfortunately, that is almost impossible for someone with strong convictions that their beliefs and their historical view are the product of unfalsifiable revelation. If your motive is proselytization rather than sincere discussion, you are in the wrong place.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Sea Breeze...My participation here is for the purpose of discussing the theological development of late Judaism/ early Christianity. I am not arguing from a contrarian ideological stance. In fact, in the course of this discussion I have improved my understanding and adjusted my opinion. I'm not promoting anything other than fact checking.

The topic of the conception of human nature is also of interest. Start a thread about your views on this and we can peer into the history of the beliefs.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

A very similar scene is in Epistle of the Apostles (140-50CE)

3 In God, the Lord, the Son of God, do we believe, that he is the word become flesh: that of Mary the holy virgin he took a body, begotten of the Holy Ghost, not of the will (lust) of the flesh, but by the will of God: that he was wrapped in swaddling clothes in Bethlehem and made manifest, and grew up and came to ripe age, when also we beheld
13 Now that which he revealed unto us is this, which he spake: It came to pass when I was about . . . to come hither from the Father of all things, and passed through the heavens, then did I put on the wisdom of the Father, and I put on the power of his might. I was in heaven, and I passed by the archangels and the angels in their likeness, like as if I were one of them, among the princedoms and powers. I passed through them because I possessed the wisdom of him that had sent me. Now the chief captain of the angels, [is] Michael, and Gabriel and Uriel and Raphael followed me unto the fifth firmament . . . , for they thought in their heart that I was one of them; such power was given me of my Father. And on that day did I adorn the archangels with a wonderful voice . . . , so that they should go unto the altar of the Father and serve and fulfil the ministry until I should return unto him. And so wrought I the likeness by my wisdom; for I became all things in all, that I might praise the dispensation of the Father and fulfil the glory of him that sent me . . . and return unto him. . . .
14 For ye know that the angel Gabriel brought the message unto Mary. And we answered: Yea, Lord. He answered and said unto us: Remember ye not, then, that I said unto you a little while ago: I became an angel among the angels, and I became all things in all? We said unto him: Yea, Lord. Then answered he and said unto us: On that day whereon I took the form of the angel Gabriel, I appeared unto Mary and spake with her. Her heart accepted me, and she believed . . . , and I formed myself and entered into her body. I became flesh, for I alone was a minister unto myself in that which concerned Mary . . . in the appearance of the shape of an angel. For so must I needs . . . do. Thereafter did I return to my Father . . .

In the Ascension of Isaiah, the Christ descends through the levels of heaven undetected by taking on the forms of the angels in each level. Eventually he takes a body that appears human, is killed, frees those in sheol and returns triumphantly. There is a large section of obvious harmonizing Christian addition detailing his birth and time on earth. Now, here in this Epistle of the Apostles version Christ is explicitly identifying as the angel Gabriel (or impersonating him). He takes on any form able to become anyone. It's all an interesting study worthy of more time than I have.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Ascension of Isaiah

7:
21. And I fell on my face to worship him, but the angel who conducted me did not permit me, but said unto me: "Worship neither throne nor angel which belongs to the six heavens - for for this cause I was sent to conduct thee j- until I tell thee in the seventh heaven.
8:
4. And I said to the angel who conducted me: "What is this which I see, my Lord?"
5. And he said: "I am not thy lord, but thy fellow servant."
9:

6. And the second whom I saw was on he left of my Lord. And I asked: "Who is this?" and he said unto me: "Worship Him, for He is the angel of the Holy Spirit, who speaketh in thee and the rest of the righteous."

I suspect the Ascension of Isaiah is underappreciated as an early Christian work. Some have suggested it was a Jewish work redacted by a Christian much like Revelation. Anyway, the story is complex with many levels of angels and beings, the highest level 'angels' are worshipped, who then in turn worship the Christ, who then worships El most High.

It's a clear parallel to Revelation with the lower angel objecting to being referred to as Lord and directing worship to another.

(But note that Isaiah continues to do so, like John in Rev repeats his attempt to worship, which is odd. Perhaps the objection in Rev isn't an emendation but served an angelological purpose?)

Is the objection in Rev 19 and 22 parallel in that the lower angel's objecting is due to his station? Other greater angels are described in a much more theophanic manner in Revelation much like in the A of I, perhaps suggesting higher rank or as stand-ins for the Most High. I don't know.

The development of angels is a complicated and long process. They became characters in their own right in Jewish and Christian mythology, not just as emanations.