Posts by peacefulpete

9

Light

by peacefulpete in

the titles and labels applied to jesus in the nt were generally drawn from the religious environment of the day.

the name titles, logos and son of man have been discussed here before and demonstrated to have been in use by greek and jewish writers as personifications of concepts pieced together from greek philosophy and ot exegesis.

elaine pagels wrote an interesting article that reveals how g.johns use of the name/title light of the world has a similar heritage.

peacefulpete

I stumbled upon a line from Jerome's QHG, in which he wishes to refute a belief in circulation 200 years prior that the Hebrew of Gen 1:1 read:

'In the Son, God made the heaven and the earth.'

Jerome's purpose is to refute certain Greek readings in favor of Hebrew. I mention this random nugget as it certainly adds to the picture. I suspect Jerome had glossed the earlier theological debate surrounding Gen 1:1 much like he did in other contexts. He was likely mistakenly refuting a Christian Targum/paraphrase. What is really important is the theology inferred.

Jerome himself was passionate about Logos theology; mirroring Philo is just about every way apart from the insistence upon incarnation which Philo was agnostic about. So, in this refutation of the reading of Genesis he wasn't necessarily disagreeing with the concept expressed he was correcting an assumed translational error.

Here is a summary of Jerome's Logos theology from the web:

Justin’s Logos is God’s instrument of revelation to humans (Dial. 128.2). The whole world come into being by a “Word of God” (Dial. 84.2; 1 Apol. 59.5; 64.5; 2 Apol. 5.3).[3] The Logos goes under various names from Scripture such as “Glory of the Lord,” “Son,” “Wisdom,” “Angel,” “God,” “Lord,” “Logos,” and “Commander” (Dial. 61.1; cf. 126.1; 128.1). The Logos is the seed of reason by which philosophers and barbarians were able to know the truth (1 Apol. 5.4; 46.1-6; 2 Apol. 13.3-6). The “divine Logos” moved the prophets to prophesy (1 Apol. 36.1). Jesus as the Logos is, then, that “rational power” (Dial.61.1) or “rational principle” (2 Apol. 10.1), who “acquired physical form and became a human being” (1 Apol. 5.4; 23.2; 63.10) by taking on “flesh” (1 Apol. 32.10; 66.2; Dial. 45.4; 84.2; 100.2).[4] He was “born from God … as Logos of God” (1 Apol. 22.2), born in a special manner from a virgin (Dial. 63-70; 1 Apol. 21.1-2; 22.2; 23.2; 32.10-33.9; 46.5; 63.16).

Justin Martyr On The Logos | Michael Bird

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

I suggest Mark 13 read something like this:

1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

2 " I tell you, I will tear down this Temple and build another!"

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. ..... 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines.

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. .... 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. .....

17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

24 “But in those days, ....“‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[d] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

The Synoptics were developed in a basic order of Mark-Matt-Luke. I can't see why that would be different in this particular section. What I'm proposing is that Mark was written perhaps as early as 60 or as late as 90CE, adjusted at some point to have Jesus predict the fall of the Temple and Jerusalem. That has been discussed before. That necessitates Matt was created very soon thereafter with Luke 20-40 years later after a number of other recensions were floating about (I speculate after the Bar Kochba revolt). The internal evidence follows that pattern.

Note also that Mark does not suggest the 'your House is left in ruins/desolate' but Matt does (23:35) and Luke follows (13:35). While this could be understood theologically, it more easily follows the literal loss of the Temple.

Whatever documents Justin has, which appear to be meager elements, he doesn't seem to have at his disposal any fully developed Gospel. That may be the result of lack of distribution or persecution. It is hard to speculate, but it is surprising given his living in Rome.

As I speculated before, the 'tear down this Temple and build another' element might have played into this as well. If some early version of the story had Jesus claim to be able to destroy the Temple and rebuild it, (as apparently was the same as making a claim to be the Messiah through an interpretation of Zechariah) it would be simple to rework that as predicting the destruction of it.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

LOL. wrong again, it was Tertullian around 208CE. I should go to bed.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

I have to correct my earlier statement that Tertullian was the earliest reference to the Gospel prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem, not only can I not trust my memory, but I also can't trust AI when I confirmed it. It was Origen around 250 CE.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

It has to be said that Justin is aware of some sayings parallel the Gospels but whatever documents he had did not include a Jesuine prophecy about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. He quotes the OT as having foretold that but knows of no tradition that Jesus had.

That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: "Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. The house of our sanctuary has become a curse, and the glory which our fathers blessed is burned up with fire, and all its glorious things are laid waste: and Thou refrainest Thyself at these things, and hast held Thy peace, and hast humbled us very sore." And ye are convinced that Jerusalem has been laid waste, as was predicted. And concerning its desolation, and that no one should be permitted to inhabit it, there was the following prophecy by Isaiah: "Their land is desolate, their enemies consume it before them, and none of them shall dwell therein." And that it is guarded by you lest any one dwell in it, and that death is decreed against a Jew apprehended entering it, you know very well.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

Merry Christmas Raymond....Often legends, like prophesies, are reverse engineered, that is, something exists or happened, and a backstory is created to explain it. In this case, after the events of the First Jewish-Roman War occurred, it seemed appropriate for Jesus to have predicted it. Mark 13 was, I suspect, recast from an apocalyptic standard end-of-days piece into a specific prophecy of the war with the addition of just a couple paragraphs spliced in awkwardly. It has to be significant that no early writers mentioned this rather significant 'fulfilled' prophecy prior to Tertullian. Even Justin Martyr when supposedly debating the Jew Trypho argues for the superiority of Christ by citing his remarkable prophetic insight to predict the suffering and hardship of Christians. He somehow forgets to mention, 'Oh Yeah, he also predicted Roman armies were going to destroy your Temple and Jerusalem!'

There is an interesting reference in Josephus to a mass evacuation after the 66CE routing of Celsius' garrison at Beth Horon. Hyper-nationalism among the Jewish victors compelled citizens that had supported the Romans to flee in large numbers. "Distinguished Jews abandoned the city like swimmers from a sinking ship" (War 2.20.1 556).

It is entirely reasonable to believe any Christians living in Jerusalem left at that point if they felt threatened in that environment.

A distorted memory of that might have played into the enhancements of Mark 13 and the legends that Christians fled by divine revelation.

10

Pella

by peacefulpete in

this short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that christians fled jerusalem to pella and escaped the destruction of jerusalem.

the legend is based upon two 4th century comments.. .

the whole body, however, of the church at jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the jordan called pella.

peacefulpete

This short thread addresses the often-repeated legend that Christians fled Jerusalem to Pella and escaped the destruction of Jerusalem. The legend is based upon two 4th century comments.

The whole body, however, of the Church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city to a certain town beyond the Jordan called Pella. Here, those who believed in Christ removed from Jerusalem as if holy men had abandoned the royal city itself and the whole land of Judea.
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

So Aquila (Translator of Old Greek LXX) while he was in Jerusalem, also saw (the disciples of the disciples of) the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis.
— Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

In these two passages Christians were said to have been given revelations or a message from an angel telling them to leave for Pella. A second passage allegedly from Epiphanius however reads:

This heresy of the Nazoreans... took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said.
— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

It would seem odd for the legend of a revelation or an angel messenger to have arisen after the version that attributed it to Jesus, suggesting the legend connecting the existence of Christians in Pella with the Gospel is a later invention.

In fact, he first quote from Epiphanius forms part of an explanation for an apparent contradiction with the belief that Christians had left Jerusalem with the legend that they were in Jerusalem in Hadrian's time still doing miracles......they had somehow and for some reason returned to live in a burnt-out city! The record shows however that when Hadrian arrived (129/30) and determined to rebuild the city as a Roman outpost, Jews (and Jewish Christians) were still forbidden entry on penalty of death. That is after all what inspired the Bar Kochba revolt a few years later and the eventual horrific Roman victory. This demonstrates the lack of historical credibility of many early Christian writings. Distanced by hundreds of years and living at a time when the Jews were again allowed to return (313CE), Epiphanius was unaware of the impossibility of Jerusalem Christians returning and thriving at the time of Hadrian.

As an interesting side note, the earlier Greek form of Weights and Measures simply mentions "apostles'" thriving doing all kinds of miracles, whereas the Syriac form adds 'disciples of disciples of' apostles. Clearly, we are seeing a solidification of a more exclusive use of the term 'apostle'.

40

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

peacefulpete

deleted

40

Daniel Made Simple!

by Leolaia in

the large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.

after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).

the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).

peacefulpete

Leolaia's fine summary of the final form of Daniel 7 and its application to the Maccabean period leaves little to be added, however for those interested in another text critical look at the chapter, I thought I'd share a few observations and proposals scholars have offered.

As has been mentioned before the 'book' of Daniel represents a collection, and a selection, of writings with Daniel as a character. I say 'selection' because as Qumran discoveries demonstrated, other Daniel stories were in circulation.

It is evident from an objective interpretation of chapter 2 that that particular story at least dates to the early/mid Hellenist period. Leolaia outlined the four Kingdoms in order are Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece, then the Greek empire is 'divided' resulting in a weakness not evident before. This clearly refers to the division of the kingdom of Alexander among his generals. It is said that during this period the God of Heaven conquers all. There is no mention of the events of Antiochus.

With this in mind. a proposal by a number of scholars suggests chapter 7, in an original vorlage form, (like 1-6) predates the Maccabean era.

Three dominant proposals have come forward, the one suggest the focus of the chapter (the little horn) originally was Ptolemy I Soter who conquered Jerusalem the first time in 320BCE "by deceit and treachery…on the Sabbath” (Josephus Ant. XII, 4). When the anticipated vindication by God failed to happen, the section was reworked and reinterpreted, as often happens, with application to the later conquest by Antiochus IV.

The second proposal is that the vision of chapter 7 originally anticipated a messiah with the descriptor 'little horn'. This means the 'little horn was not a malevolent character originally but, like the above proposal, when the anticipated savior failed, the character was reinterpreted negatively, in the person of Antiochus.

The third proposal is perhaps simplest IMO, Chapter 7 has been expanded and reinterpreted though the interpolation of a 'little horn' from chapter 8 as part of the process of homologously bridging an earlier collection of stories with the later apocalyptic section of chapters 8-12. Many have suggested, on linguistic and form critical grounds, that verses 8,11,12 (with its reference to the 'little horn') is a secondary addition to chapter 7. If this is correct, then chapter 7 like chapter 2 originally anticipated divine intervention at a time prior to the Maccabean revolt. A related but distinct view is that chapter 7 was expanded during the Antiochus period first then soon after served as inspiration for chapts 8-12. I like this proposal best as it also explains the unique form of the word 'horn' found only in 7:8 and not in chapter 8.

Any of these suggestions offer a solution to the language difference as well. Chapters 2:4-7 are in Aramaic whereas chapts 8-12 are in Hebrew. This suggests they once circulated as collections independently.