Posts by peacefulpete

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

I know I'm getting carried away, but nothing was on TV, lol. I found another interesting parallel. 2 Esdras 4

Then the angel that had been sent to me, whose name was Uriel, answered 2 and said to me, “Your understanding has utterly failed regarding this world, and do you think you can comprehend the way of the Most High?” 3 Then I said, “Yes, my lord.” And he replied to me, “I have been sent to show you...

(He then mirrors the Job sequence of demonstrating the ignorance of humans compared to God, then delivers an apocalyptic message of the timing of the end of time)

11 how, then, can your mind comprehend the way of the Most High?[c] And how can one who is already worn out by the corrupt world understand incorruption?”[d] When I heard this, I fell on my face[e
38 Then I answered and said, “But, O sovereign Lord, all of us also are full of ungodliness. 39 It is perhaps on account of us that the time of threshing is delayed for the righteous—on account of the sins of those who inhabit the earth.”

Here is an apocalyptic story an angel is sent by the Most High but is himself addressed as Sovereign Lord. Ezra is seen falling on his face.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

This story of the Great Angel in Joshuah 5 strikes me as a parallel:

13 And it came to pass when Joshua was in Jericho, that he looked up with his eyes and saw a man standing before him, and a drawn sword in his hand; and Joshua drew near and said to him, Art thou for us or on the side of our enemies?

14 And he said to him, I am now come, the chief captain of the host of the Lord.

15 And Joshua fell on his face upon the earth, and said to him, Lord, what commandest thou thy servant?

16 And the captain of the Lord's host said to Joshua, Loose thy shoe off thy feet, for the place whereon thou now standest is holy

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Also look at Rev 19 & 22 again. After the objection of John's attempt to worship the messengers, he directs him to worship God. The same word. But as it is, the text does appear awkward and confounding in light of modern Christain sensitivities. It seems to me that we have one of two options. This is an early adjustment to the controversial work in which an editor added the objection of the angel to refute the then objectionable worship of an angel of God or the original author/compiler was editing his source. If an early form of the text held the angel to be an emanation of God, (as I believe to be the case in other sections) the worship might have been perfectly acceptable to the writer. As I mentioned before many believe the work was a compilation of related Jewish apocalyptic scenes reworked by a Christian.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

That's what I meant by explaining away......

The semantic distinction you are clasping onto is sleight of hand. missing the identification of Jesus as Yahweh.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

I meant to address Heb 1:5 in a previous thread but forgot. Here again the author is mashing OT references to David (Psalm 2:7 and 2 Sam 7:14) and interpreted by some late 2nd temple era readers as Messianic. They are linked through key words and through the idea of sonship.

The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you...or again “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

Ask when this was said of Jesus in the Gospel narrative. According to Luke 3:22 in early western manuscripts and early patristic writings, it was at his baptism. This was the primary proof text for Adoptionists. Origen quotes the passage but argues the timeless nature of God means the begetting was timeless in subtle refutation. Later copyists simply altered the text to drop the begetting part to refute Docetism.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Philo’s Logos is the foundation for John’s Logos theology misinterprets...

Philo's writings represent a snapshot in theological development. He assumes his readers know what he is elaborating upon. The concepts were much older and pervasive than a single author. It is entirely possible the author of John never read Philo but was drawing from a larger milieu of thought.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

It should be obvious, that the concurrent growing disuse of Yahweh contributed to this freer conception of God. Yahweh probably appeared too regional and backwater. That is why it is not at all surprising to not see Yahweh in the NT. It was an artifact by that point.

It's easy to forget the spans of time involved. For us the 5th century and 3rd century BCE seem about the same, but 200 years is a loooong time in the world of memes and trends. Now add another 200 years or more to get to the birth of a anew branch of Judaism that had a unique blend of Messianism and Logos theology. Add another 100-200 years till the earliestevidence we have about what they believed. And another couple hundred years for the manuscripts we use. It is an illusion of the mind to imagine a consistent and uniform theology through those long turbulent years.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Ok...again Heb 1:6 is a mashup of Psalm 89 referring to David as God's firstborn and Deut 32 where the Most High delegates Israel to Yahweh his son. Vs. 43 then says all of El's angels should worship Yahweh. It is a creative mashup hinged upon the theme of sonship and deity. It reveals the mind of the author of Hebrews to have then expressly applied it to Jesus. He is linking the Davidic Kingship and Yahweh with Jesus. From our literalist perspective it looks impossible, yet that is typical OT eisegesis found in the NT. Yahweh could be held in the mind as both the high God and as the son/Messiah. In the same way Jesus/Christ could be son/messiah as well as God.

Just as the Logos was described as Son and God. The keystone is the concept of second power/emanations.

It was described as a Mystery for a reason. The WT dumbed down version appeals to the rational mind but requires 'explaining away' a great many passages. The Trinity is again a brilliant bit of theology but is still an artificial formulation imposed upon a far freer conception of God.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

Two Powers in Heaven - Dr. Michael Heiser

Here is an article with some good references for further reading.

407

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

peacefulpete

I think this is the particular view of Margaret Barker and of Mormons...

And the writers of the NT.