Christianity at its core is a Jekyll and Hyde affair. It was borne out of hostility and oppression. Hundreds of years of militant Jewish idealism followed by unspeakable horrors left an indelible mark of the new faith. Christians, like their Jewish predecessors, wished for peace and love but more often than not practiced intolerance and inflexibility. Peaceful Christians, if not an oxymoron, are an anomaly. Most all Christian faiths speak a good game about peace but harbor fantasies of hellfire or world destruction.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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22
A gospel of LOVE or a gospel of HATE?
by JanH in" (the watchtower, 10/1 1961, p. 596; bold added).
" (the watchtower, 11/15 1952, p. 703; bold added).
" (the watchtower, 10/1 1952, p. 599; bold added).
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Did the WT Policy on Lying Bother You When You Were a JW?
by Sea Breeze inhere's the wt standard for lying: "while malicious lying is definitely condemned in the bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it" - insight pp.
244-245. vs. websters dictionary:.
lie, noun.
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peacefulpete
Thinking back, the issue never felt terribly shocking. I assumed it was intended to save lives, and after all doesn't everyone accept that lies can save lives. Saving reputations however is a different thing. When deception is done to save face or conceal embarrassing facts, then it is no longer noble. It is just plain old lying.
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What is the Craziest Thing You Are Aware Of Someone Being Disfellowshipped For?
by Sea Breeze ini knew a lady who was disfellowshipped for 20 years for smoking.
she finally went back to the kh and since they couldn't find her paperwork, (all the former elders were dead) she was allowed back in without reinstatement.
no one even remembered her.
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peacefulpete
To my shame, I was party to disfellowshipping a poor woman, whose nonJW wife divorced her to facilitate getting immigration papers to the US. At the time it was easier for single able-bodied men to apply for VISAs than families. They were in reality still married and a loving family of 4. This was a third world country, and she had no means of support other than her husband's subsistence wages. She remained living at home and engaging in normal activities, I was sick about it even then. She was balling when the body demanded she not return home to her husband. I often think about my role and can only hope she found a new life elsewhere.
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The JW's are suing Mark O'Donnell in civil court for millions.So protect the pedos, and suit the whistelblowers? Shame on this cult!
by WingCommander inlink to his announcement on www.jwchildabuse.org:.
https://www.jwchildabuse.org/news/jehovahs-witnesses-sue-editor-of-jw-child-abuse-website-for-millions/.
if anyone needed any further proof of how low and despicable this cult has become, here's more evidence.
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peacefulpete
The WT success would depend upon proving actual damages. Also using a link by an unauthorized person is not wiretapping but possibly reaches the definition of cyber trespassing, but still actual damages must be proven.
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Jephthah's Daughter
by cantleave ini have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.
the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.
how could they visit her if she was killed?.
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peacefulpete
Regarding the rites of human sacrifice in the ancient world, most all cultures engaged in it in their deep pasts. Interestingly the Persian empire went through such a transition under the influence of the Zoroastrian religious influences. The Romans also describe such a transition. There is an ancient tale of Numa the legendary 2nd king of Rome engaging in negotiations with Jupiter (the top god often equated with the Jewish Yahweh) over the demand of human sacrifice. It is summarized below:
Numa and his people had once been terrified by frequent lightning bolts, signs of the wrath of Jupiter. Using a secret spell or ritual, the king called the god down to the Aventine Hill to ask how to expiate the portents. The god responded with what sounded like a demand for human sacrifice. The king, however, talked back. When Jupiter demanded a ‘head’, Numa offered: ‘The head of an onion’. Jupiter rejoined, ‘....Of a human being’; Numa supplied: ‘The hairs.’ Jupiter gave it one more try, clarifying ‘....A life’; Numa responded: ‘Of a fish!’ Agreement was reached, and from then on Romans expiated lightning at the shrine of Jupiter Elicius with an onion, some human hairs, and a fish.
This story retroactively reformed the cult of the Romans, providing an origin story for the shunning of human sacrifice. One can't help but notice certain similarities with certain dialogues and negotiations in the OT. I have posed something similar for the purpose of the Akedah story. Perhaps a more ancient legend was reused, but the substitution of the ram for Isaac part might have served as an illustration of new religious ideals of the 5th/4th century.
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Christians and War and the Role of Conscience (a work in progress)
by Terry inchristians and war and the role of conscience ______________ christian integrity vs duty to superior authority from the federal government’s povthe u.s. government saw jw’s as one group within a larger group of men refusing military service within existing law - for reasons of deeply held convictions.
we jw brothers weren’t the only ones affected, as evidenced by this list.. quakers.
jehovah’s witnesses.
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peacefulpete
That raises the question of who is my brother? (family)
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Ezra...Son of God.
by peacefulpete inbriefly said, the various/diverse ancient stories present ezra as directed by a persian king to establish religious/national law and order in judea.
he is said to have re-introduced the locals and returnees to the law of moses.
he and five others present this law to the people with mixed and brutal results.
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peacefulpete
Phizzy, I haven't read Liverani but gather his thesis parallels that of a number of others. That is, the extensive revisionism of 'history' engaged in during the Persian period. I'm reluctant to accept the stories were invented 'whole cloth' however. These revisionists utilized a body of legend and mytheme that in some cases dated centuries before. It would also appear this reinvention of the past occurred in stages.
The Persian desire for stability within the empire adds credibility to the legends of the 'King' having directed aspects of the establishment of a centralized bureaucracy, both governor and priesthood. I also see the recounting of local resistance to these 'reforms' to likely reflect an historical reality.
Ezra/Nehemiah/Zerubbabel may have been historical agents of the King, or may represent embodiments of that process or composite characters of a number of appointees of the Persians to establish order spanning a hundred years or more. Either way, the later retelling and expansion of those stories inspired new approaches to worship and history. The Samaritan and Muslim clerics saw in this particular legend (Ezras rewrite) an explanation/justification for sectarian differences, while the Christian acceptance, in the case of Irenaeus, served as a precedent for accepting the LXX (with its unique wording used by NT writers) as inspired above the other language versions.
....they came together in the same place before Ptolemy, and each of them compared his own interpretation with that of every other, God was indeed glorified, and the Scriptures were acknowledged as truly divine. For all of them read out the common translation [which they had prepared] in the very same words and the very same names, from beginning to end, so that even the Gentiles present perceived that the Scriptures had been interpreted by the inspiration of God. And there was nothing astonishing in God having done this — He who, when, during the captivity of the people under Nebuchadnezzar, the Scriptures had been corrupted, and when, after seventy years, the Jews had returned to their own land, then, in the times of Artaxerxes king of the Persians, inspired Esdras the priest, of the tribe of Levi, to recast all the words of the former prophets, and to re-establish with the people the Mosaic legislation.
These diverse movements (and their opponents) each found the legend of Ezra rewriting the Torah and prophets useful.
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Ezra...Son of God.
by peacefulpete inbriefly said, the various/diverse ancient stories present ezra as directed by a persian king to establish religious/national law and order in judea.
he is said to have re-introduced the locals and returnees to the law of moses.
he and five others present this law to the people with mixed and brutal results.
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peacefulpete
Sorry for the slapdash post again. Just found the matter interesting. There is so much tradition from those centuries that has largely been forgotten, but that shaped the religious world then and now.
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Ezra...Son of God.
by peacefulpete inbriefly said, the various/diverse ancient stories present ezra as directed by a persian king to establish religious/national law and order in judea.
he is said to have re-introduced the locals and returnees to the law of moses.
he and five others present this law to the people with mixed and brutal results.
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peacefulpete
Briefly said, the various/diverse ancient stories present Ezra as directed by a Persian king to establish religious/national law and order in Judea. He is said to have re-introduced the locals and returnees to the Law of Moses. He and five others present this Law to the people with mixed and brutal results. That role as restorer of forgotten Laws and prophets inspired many traditions including detailing this process of 'restoring' the works of Moses and the prophets. It also shaped theology in surprising ways.
4 Ezra 4:19 …For the world lies in darkness, and its inhabitants are without light. 4:21 For your law has been burned, and so no one knows the things which have been done or will be done by you.
4:22 If then I have found favor with you, send the holy spirit into me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things that were written in your law, so that people may be able to find the path, and that those who want to live in the last days may do so.The above, written sometime soon after 70CE, reflects an ancient tradition in which Ezra held an elevated place, equaled only by Moses. He is addressed in 4 Ezra as "The Scribe of the knowledge of the Most High". The text continues with Ezra raising to heaven in the typical 'Heavenly Ascent' genre' fashion, being given a cup to drink that supernaturally gives him ability to recall all the Torah and prophetic works over the course of 40 days.
His role as 'restorer' of the law and all the prophets' writings is found in Rabbinic tradition as well, for example:
Shir HaShirim Rabbah 2:12
"The Torah was forgotten, but Ezra restored it."
Other Rabbinic tradition identified changes made by Ezra with the intention of improving the text so as not to blaspheme or misunderstand. There is also another string of tradition that uses this role of Ezra to explain the Aramaic lettering. While naturally there are variations on that theme, the basic idea is that Ezra was a 'second Moses' and was actually called such. (This concept is often linked or replaced with the idea of the "Great Assembly" of 120 scribes led by Ezra).
Some modern scholarship suggests the tradition originated through observations of emendations and inconsistency in the collections of Pentateuchal works. Specifically, Ezra's harsh treatment of non-Israelite wives and how it stands in contrast to Moses himself, but who knows.
Regardless the origin, it can be said there was a widely held belief that the Torah was lost in the destruction of the first Temple and until Ezra the Torah and prophetic works were 'forgotten'.
Somewhat surprisingly the Christian writer Irenaeus, repeats a variation on that tradition:
Iraneaus, Against Heresies, 3.21.2 During the captivity of the people under Nebuchadnezzar the Scriptures had been destroyed by corruption… But when ... the Jews had returned to their own land in the times of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, Ezra the priest of the tribe of Levi was inspired to order in his mind all the words of the former prophets and to reestablish the Mosaic legislation for the people.
It is not surprising opponents of the Jews and Christians would seize upon that tradition. The 3rd century Porphyry of Tyre wrote in his Adversus Christianos, that all of Moses’ texts were reduced to ashes when the first temple was destroyed,
“and all those which were written under his name afterwards were composed inaccurately one thousand one hundred and eighty years after Moses’ death by Ezra and his followers.”
One of the foundational distinctions and divisions between the Jews and Samaritans was over the transmission issue of the holy texts themselves. Notice an ancient Samaritan Yom Kippur liturgy reads as such:
"...Cursed be Ezra and his words that he wrote in his shame.”
Muslim 10th/11th century Muslims writers repeat this tradition of Ezra as supernaturally recovering the Torah. Yet an enigmatic passage in the Quaran shaped a negative view of this story.
Q 9.30–31 reads:
The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah”; and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
The perceived compromise of strict monotheism on the part of some Jews who elevated Ezra to being 'son of God/Allah' much like the Christian elevation of the 'son of Mary' to being 'son of God' was deeply disturbing for the author of that passage. Clearly this author did not accept, or perhaps understand, the concept of second power theology popular in late second temple Judaism.
But why would anyone have understood Ezra in such a role? Yes, other earlier works described Enoch or Melchizedek as a Logos-type emanations/sons of God and Philo thought as much regarding Abraham et.al. Early so-called Gnostic Christians also understood the Almighty as having used avatars of himself throughout history, (e.g. Jesus, Simon Magus) so the idea of Ezra being regarded this way is not shocking.
The 10th century Muslim scholar Al-Thaʿlabī, (Legends of the Prophets) quotes from 3 much earlier scholars presenting Jews as arguing that this role as supernatural restorer of the writings justified his being understood as 'Son of God'.
“Ezra would not have been given this were he not the son of God!”
“God gave this to him only because he is His son.”
“God would not have sent down the Torah into the heart of one of us after it had departed from our hearts, except if he were His son."
Al-Thaʿlabī (History) also describes this process of deification as:
“Then he [Ezra] died. In the course of time, the Israelites considered Ezra to be the son of God. God again sent them a prophet, as He did in the past, to direct and teach them, and to command them to follow the Torah.”
The 11th century Ibn Ḥazm also noted this Ezra tradition and used it polemically. Describing Ezra not as a faithful agent of God but as a Heretic that deliberately corrupted the text.
Ultimately this ancient Ezra tradition became an embarrassment and fell from favor, seldom to be repeated.
file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/the_forging_of_a)tradition_the_hebrew_Bible_ezra_the_scribe_and_the_corruption_of_jewish_monotheism_according_to_the_writings_of_al_tabari_al_tha_labi_and_ibn_hazm.pdf
https://uk.edu.vn/en/Ezra_in_Rabbinic_Literature
https://booksnthoughts.com/ezra-changed-the-torah-text/#_ftnref5
https://www.thetorah.com/article/did-ezra-reconstruct-the-torah-or-just-change-the-script
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Jephthah's Daughter
by cantleave ini have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.
the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.
how could they visit her if she was killed?.
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peacefulpete
Person...the site was down for couple days. Simon did some updates