Posts by KalebOutWest

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

EasyPrompt wrote:

KalebOutWest doesn't believe in God, but claims to read the Bible for the sake of tradition. To follow in that course would be to encourage slavery to empty ritual. What a waste of time!

You are incorrect. I merely said I was a Humanistic Jew.

You do not understand what it means when Humanistic Jews say they do not believe in God as Orthodox Jews do, in other words, as a literal, divine supernatural being described in the Scriptures.

Most Jews, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionists, Secular, Humanistic, etc., do not accept the narrow view of Orthodox rabbinical Judaism because of the teachings of Maimonides, Spinoza, and Mordecai Kaplan.

Since the Middle Ages, most Jews follow the view of Maimonides and do not believe the description of God in the Scriptures since those terms are anthropomorphic (describe God as having human features and qualities like idol gods). Maimonides taught that Jews should view God as ineffable, something too high to grasp by the human mind.

Thus many Jews, when they believe in God, are not claiming a belief in the "God of the Bible" like Christians do. Others do not see God as an entity or person but as "Something," far greater than a "being." Because the concept of "gods" is a human one, some Jews reject the concept altogether and will not use it to describe the Creator of life and the universe. This is NOT the exclusive view of Humanstic Judaism, but the majority view outside of Orthodox Judaism.

So when some Jews claim to be Secular or Humanist or say they are Jewish "without God," this should not be used to mean that they do not "believe in God," per se.

I am something known as "ignostic" in Jewish terms, which does not exclude a belief in God.

This term includes the view that debates regarding "what is God/belief in God" are generally a waste of time because parties cannot first come to an agreement on what might constitute "God" in the first place (if such a thing as "God" exists).

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

EasyPrompt wrote:

"Humanistic Jew" is also an oxymoron.

To what end can the denial of God have been created? If someone comes to you and asks your help, you shall not send him off with pious words, saying: "Have faith and take your troubles to God!" You shall act as if there were no God, as if there were only one person in all the world who could help this man--only yourself.--Rabbi Moshe Leib.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

Kosonen wrote:

Calab, how can you trust those claims that discredit Daniel as the author of the book of Daniel?
And besides that, when I read the book of Daniel, I can not think about anything else than that he is the writer of this book. When did you last time read the book of Daniel?
And may I ask you, how is your relation with Jehovah/Yahweh God?

Some of the views you have come from the Watchtower and not from mainstream Christianity or Judaism. Like that introduction from the official Catholic Bible I showed you, it is not a "discredit" to claim that there was no historical Daniel. It is just another Watchtower lie that you believe. The view that "Daniel" is a folkhero goes back to Jewish antiquity, which is why the book itself is in the Writings section of the Jewish Tanakh and why Daniel is not listed as a prophet in the Talmud among the propets of Israel.

I read Daniel and the Scriptures almost daily. I am Jewish. I read them in their original languages. My family line can be traced all the way back to the Diaspora. From the Spanish Inquistion through the Holocaust, I have a family line that knows what I am saying to you. I am not making this up. I am passing this on to you.

What you are holding on to is Watchtower teaching. You are even using a Catholic derivative of the Shem HaMephorash or the Ineffable Name--"Jehovah"--a Gentile device which means nothing in Hebrew or to Jewish people. The use of that expression by Jehovah's Witnesses is a superstitious novelty that they use out of fear, believing that they will be punished by this deity named "Jehovah" (of their own creation) that will destroy them and anyone who does not pronounce it (or some derivative of it). In reality, the Shem HaMephorash means that God cannot be labeled or named, and the actual word YHWH may have been from a deity from a foreign tribe of people called the Shasu who lived at one time near Moab.

And Jews do not measure their lives by "their relation" with God--that must be some Christian or JW thing (I sort of remember a thing like that back in the day when I was associating in the 1980s with the Watchtower). Jews try to live lives caring for the earth, seeking out ways of finding practical solutions to problems for the world, finding their purpose for being here and fulfilling it. Since being a Jew is not a religion, some Jewish people believe in God, some do not. And even those who do, the concept of God is very complex in comparison to that held by Christianity. It has not remained static over the centuries and differs from person to person.

Some Jews who do believe in God do not believe in a personal God. And because praying or ritual do not hold the same meaning in Judaism as they do in Christianity, it is not rare to find many atheist and agnostic Jews engaging in prayer and worship. Because of the complexity of Jewish theology in comparison to Christian views of God, there is the ability for Jews to be something called "ignostic" which is not totally possible in the same manner for those raised in Western/Christian thought.

There is more to life than Jehovah's Witnesses and the New World Translation, I promise you.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

Kasonen wrote:

Kaleb, what do you say about the Tanakh? I just googled to see if the book of Daniel is there and yes it is.

I did signify this in my post before in one of my previous posts, writing:

Daniel is not included in the Prophets section of the Jewish canon, but the writings due not only to this fact but to the fact that it is not a prophecy but an apocalypse written by the Hasmoneons/Maccabees.

The Jewish canon is divided into three sections, namely the Torah (the Law), the Nevi'im (the Prophets), and the Ketuvim (the Writings). The letters from the three sections create the acronym from which the Jewish word "Tanakh" comes from.

The Book of Daniel is placed in the Ketuvim or "Writings" section of the Jewish Bible and not in the "Nevi'im or "Prophets" section. As I mentioned, "Daniel" is a Jewish folkhero from the Mesopotamian ancient world. He was not a real, historical person. The book is an apocalypse not a book of prophecy. That is why I said it was in the Writings section of the Jewish canon.

How you missed this or misunderstood this, I do not know.

Chabad, by the way, is a Jewish Orthodox religious group, some members of which believe its founder is the Jewish Messiah who died not too long ago. They do not believe in critical study but in mystical religious experience. Chabad does not speak for all Jews, just for their small group.

(If you want to know more about Judaism in general try the site My Jewish Learning which covers all Jewish denominations and the book Judaism for Dummies.)

Since Daniel was the last book written, being composed during the time of the Maccabees/Hasmoneans right before the first Chanukah (164 BCE), the book is often referred to among some Jews as "the Last Book." This is one of the reasons chapter 12 of Daniel ends with mention of the sealing of the book, the time of the end, and the resurrection.

The Hasmoneans described their struggles against the Hellenists in the person of "Daniel" and dramatized the fall of the Babylonians and world powers as the Seleucids to describe the re-dedication of the Temple under the Maccabees.

Even the official Roman Catholic Bible, the NABRE, states in its intoduction to Daniel:

This work was composed during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (167–164 B.C.) and was written to strengthen and comfort the Jewish people in their ordeal. The persecution was occasioned by Antiochus’s efforts to unify his kingdom, in face of the rising power of Rome, by continuing the hellenization begun by Alexander the Great; Antiochus tried to force Jews to adopt Greek ways, including religious practices.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

Why are you suprised at the term "disinterested academics"?

You, EasyPrompt, claimed to be an archeologist, remember? You claimed you went to various universities to gain your credentials to officially become this type of expert in one of our discussions.

As a scientist you should be familiar with the need for having a disinterested party to ensure any critical conclusion anyone makes.

It isn't an "oxymoron" to a person who practices your methodology. Without a fellow academic to act as a disinterested party one cannot produce a critical theory, you know that. That is "Science 101," not an oxymoron.

As a Humanistic Jew, while I do celebrate Sukkot, I do not wave the Lulav.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

I am pointing to critical analysis and historical academia and its data, which is secular.

Authority, religious or otherwise, cannot help you, only the weight of critical evidence.

Religious dogma will likely cloud the matter as well.

And the Jewish people as a whole are not a religion, but a culture, a civilization. I myself am Jewish but am not religious. The majority of Jews in the state of Israel are not religious but are instead secular. And more than half the Jews in America (approximately 68% according to a Pew survey some 3 years ago) identify as secular or not religious. Unlike Christianity, being Jewish has to do with who you are born to and not what you believe in your head.

My statements regarding what the Jewish people wrote was not about "religious authorities," but about the culture and civilization that produced the Jewish Scriptures. Unfortunately we do have to deal with the fact of my own people's past reliance on superstition (it is the Jewish Scripture of Daniel we were discussing after all), but when this is done via reliable methodologies with the assistance of disinterested academics to prove your work, you can be assured of conclusions that are reliable and not based upon anyone's personal opinon or religious dogma.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

After pointing out the following from my previous comment:

It should be noted that of the 55 prophets listed in the Talmud, Daniel is not one of them, and the Biblical book of Daniel is not included in the Prophets section of the Jewish canon,

Kosonen says:

But Jesus refered to the book of Daniel.

So? Jesus is not considered a prophet or the Messiah or an authority of any kind in Judaism either. And neither does the gospel of Matthew or any of the New Testament/Christian scriptures appear in the Jewish Bible canon.

So quoting Christian texts or the words of Jesus does not prove the Daniel was a real person or a prophet. The Jewish people wrote the texts and any people who author a text have a right to declare their meaning over any foreign people who cannot even read them in their original language without the use of a translation in the first place.

Here is a video created by a scholar who used to belong to the sister cult of Jehovah's Witnesses called the Worldwide Church of God that dissolved after it cult leader died in the mid 1980s. They had almost an exact view of the book of Daniel that the Watchtower has had (and has today). This man grew up in the WCG but when it's leader died (which was a sign Jesus was not going to return and usher the coming Paradise on earth), they realized it was a false religion and almost everyone left--and he went to college and got a real education (similar to my own story).

Here he explains the differences regarding prophecy and apocalypse regarding the books of Daniel and Revelation (with a few allusions to his past beliefs which are a little similar to Watchtower-isms):

https://youtu.be/fTURdV0c9J0?si=00HMaTDP4CDLSj33

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

KalebOutWest

Daniel is not a prophecy but an apocalypse, which is a different type of genre altogether.

It employs prophetic Jewish tropes to:

hide the fact that the author employs critical language against a nation that is oppressing the Jews and
comfort the Jews with the hope that events are "in the hands of God" and will turn out for the better.

Daniel is a Mesopotamian folkhero and during the time of the Maccabean revolt, he was cast as an "every-day" man who proved so faithful during the Babylonian exile that God used him as a prophet that had the power to humiliate Gentile kings.

It should be noted that of the 55 prophets listed in the Talmud, Daniel is not one of them, and the Biblical book of Daniel is not included in the Prophets section of the Jewish canon, but the writings due not only to this fact but to the fact that it is not a prophecy but an apocalypse written by the Hasmoneons/Maccabees.

The events in Daniel chapter 8 are actually a commentary on the revolt itself that eventually turn into the very first celebration of Chanukah. As noted in any mainstream Bible (such as The Jewish Study Bible, the New Oxford Annotated Study Bible, the NABRE, and the New Jerusalem Bible, to name a few), the schema is that of the power struggle after the death of Alexander the Great's death, when in verse 8, out of the four horns one in particular comes forth, which is Antichus IV Epichanes who suppresses Jewish worship in the Temple in Jerusalem.

Talk of the "sanctuary" and the "end" are discriptions of the end of the revolt and Judas Maccabees' enemies.

Verse 14 may have been the literal days the Temple stayed without a sacrifice until it was rededicated at the first Chanukah celebration.

18

Can any JW answer "Yes" to this VERY simple question?:

by BoogerMan in

"jesus related 30 - 50 parables/similes.

can you name just one which was to be understood as a prophecy?

utterly amaze them by showing that there is one - allegedly!.

KalebOutWest

EasyPrompt: If you feel I am not treating you decently, perhaps you could tell me what would make you feel more comfortable.🌷

I just did. Apparently you don't get it--or worse, you won't get it. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to explain it to you, but I am not the only one on this platform who has used to term "troll" in speaking about your behavior.

You, yourself, admit that you can seem "troll-like" on this thread:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6321585892360192/were-life-spans-patriarchs-just-allegory-astronomical-cycles

We had a very difficult time on it where you said horrible things about my Jewish heritage there repeatedly, using questionable words and language. You were very hateful and abusive, and you show no remorse even now.

I am not the one who invented the term "troll" for you on the thread either, and you admitting that you do indeed have a problem--enough has been proven. So you know your behavior even on this thread is getting out of hand.

So with my explanation given, you admitting you have a problem on other threads, others on these other threads noting your out-of-place behavior, I don't need to say anymore.

If you need others to explain it to you, I am sure they will. I feel any other words from me or any other time used here by me with you would be a waste.

18

Can any JW answer "Yes" to this VERY simple question?:

by BoogerMan in

"jesus related 30 - 50 parables/similes.

can you name just one which was to be understood as a prophecy?

utterly amaze them by showing that there is one - allegedly!.

KalebOutWest

@EasyPrompt:

Remember the saying, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, but teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime"?

My heartfelt answer is to lead you to go where you can find those answers from trustworthy, dependable sources. Who cares about my personal opinion? That "video" was produced by a group of professional scholars, teachers and rabbis who are experts on Judaism--they can answer the question best on what makes a Jew--and lead to further answers.

As to your final Scripture on Revelation 3:9, I don't know what you mean. All I can answer is have you never read Paul when he wrote: “Who are you to pass judgment on slaves of another? It is before their own lord that they stand or fall. And they will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make them stand.”--Romans 14:4.

And again:”Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.”--Romans 14:10.

And again James when he wrote: “If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?”--James 4:11-12.

You're just upset that I posted a video that was relevant and you, who claimed you were an archeologist don't even know Arabic or Hebrew...are even making fun that I posted a relevant video. You are just acting like a big bully or even like a troll -- but why?

Can't you act more decent online?