Posts by KalebOutWest

50

Were the life spans of the patriarchs just an allegory of astronomical cycles?

by was a new boy in

lengths of life of the patriarchs.

genesis.

length of life.

KalebOutWest

And you know, Raymond Frantz, I'm not asking to get into a debate with a non-Jew who is telling a Jew:

"You are totally wrong."

I mean, that is kinda weird.

Where did you go to school to learn Judaism? What is your Jewish name? Did you know that English is not my first language? Guess what is? Do you speak that language? I bet you don't.

But I lost a lot of people, a lot of family in the Shoah who can no longer speak for themselves.

Scripture and our tradition is very important to us. The Watchtower warps it. If you want to think we Jews are wrong, fine. Go ahead. I don't know what your standards are for judging Jews for thinking that or what makes you think you know better than Jews to understand our own teachings.

I don't have time to discuss anymore because the Days of Awe are upon us, the High Holy Days start tomorrow, with Rosh Hoshanah. I have things to do.

But I am glad you think I, a Jew, am wrong. Kind of warped, but Shana Tova to you never the less.

50

Were the life spans of the patriarchs just an allegory of astronomical cycles?

by was a new boy in

lengths of life of the patriarchs.

genesis.

length of life.

KalebOutWest

I'm Jewish. I went to 10 years of Hebrew school.

I may be an exJW but I wasn't born in. I just gave you several Jewish texts to look up. I have my Talmud and my entire Sefaria library at hand. Which commentaries are you talking about?

50

Were the life spans of the patriarchs just an allegory of astronomical cycles?

by was a new boy in

lengths of life of the patriarchs.

genesis.

length of life.

KalebOutWest

So the people who lived nearer the event by thousands of years believed to be literal but the "scholars" that lived thousands of years after the event they think its metaphorical. Why believe the "scholars"?
Good question, raymond frantz.
Jews have never believed this information was ever literal. These scholars are just pointing that out.
It's not the invention of modern scholars. As the The Jewish Study Bible illustrates, the information comes from the testimony of the ancients, not modern people, especially the ancient Jewish sages who also testify that these things are not literal
Ancient teachers like Rashi (Scholom Yitzchaki) and Maimonides, and other great contributors to the Talmud are some of the persons that modern scholars pay close attention to.
While there are modern contributions that are taken into consideration, they generally take second place these days, especially since the discovery of the Qumran Scrolls. Other ancient texts and any contribution they might have to the meaning and context to the Tanakh, especially in comparison to other Mesopotamian writings as a genre are always allowed to be read as a whole along with Jewish tradition, within Jewish culture, in the scope and evolution of Jewish history.
But one always begins with the testimony of the most ancient of sources--and when it comes to the Jewish texts that means with the Jewish sages. Their testimony is that these works are legends, folklore, and mythology. The Torah itself is a work of Law, not history. The Talmud itself is the greatest testimony to this.
For more information, Conservative Judaism has its own volume of the NJPS Torah, called Etz Hayim: Torah and Commentary. It has the same English translation of the NJPS that The English Study Bible has alongside the Hebrew Masoretic text, and similar information in far greater detail that I am explaining here.
In other words, the information is ancient.

50

Were the life spans of the patriarchs just an allegory of astronomical cycles?

by was a new boy in

lengths of life of the patriarchs.

genesis.

length of life.

KalebOutWest

According to The Jewish Study Bible, published by the Jewish Publication Society, Judaism recognizes it as a trope of their own invention, an equivalent to that found in and around around the Levant, such as in Sumer. In a footnote to these genealogies in Genesis, we find the genre addressed as folklore:

Genesis 5.1-32: The ten generations from Adam to Noah...The enormous life spans of Adam and his antediluvian descendants find a parallel in the Sumerian King List, an anceint Mesopotamian text, in which the pre-flood kings rule much longer than those who came afterward (the longest regin was 65,000 years). The underlying conception is that things proceeded on a grander scale in those days. These life spans are thus akin to the biblical alllusions to primordial giants or heroes.

The NABRE, the Catholic Bible produced by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, agrees, stating the following in the footnote to the same verses, admitting that Sumer sources also talk about a flood and how in both the cataclysmic event marked a reduction in ages that follow in the legends and folklore:

The genealogy itself and its placement before the flood shows the influence of ancient Mesopotamian literature, which contains lists of cities and kings before and after the flood. Before the flood, the ages of the kings ranged from 18,600 to 36,000 years, but after it were reduced to between 140 and 1,200 years. The biblical numbers are much smaller.

And if all that was just too stuffy and not straightforward enough for you, The Harper Collins Study Bible, produced by the Society of Biblical Literature pulls no punches in telling everyone it's just metaphorical:

The long lives of the patriarchs before the flood (ten genrations) are a sign of the greateness of the ancestors and their distances from the present era. A similar concept is found in Mesopotamian king lists, where the kings before the[ir concept of the] flood (usually seven to ten kings) lived for tens of thousands of years.

19

About the Mark of the Beast

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

i can agree on most of what this man preaches about the mark of the beast.. https://madmaxworld.tv/watch?id=64fd01a1112661824fb397c7.

..

KalebOutWest

19

About the Mark of the Beast

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

i can agree on most of what this man preaches about the mark of the beast.. https://madmaxworld.tv/watch?id=64fd01a1112661824fb397c7.

..

KalebOutWest

I watched you on that other thread when you were a jerk to that other guy--and then you cried that he was doing something bad to you, but in reality you were the one being terrible and horrific.

People need to see what kind of "love" you really have. You even said you were going away for awhile from this site because of how badly you were treated, when in reality you were being the jerk, like you are now.

You don't show love--or if you think it is, it is because you are twisted. I am glad you are being this way. Now everyone can see you for what you are.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5126221415841792/what-self-deception

19

About the Mark of the Beast

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

i can agree on most of what this man preaches about the mark of the beast.. https://madmaxworld.tv/watch?id=64fd01a1112661824fb397c7.

..

KalebOutWest

EasyPrompt: Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there isn't someone else who does understand it.

I didn't say I didn't understand it. I wrote that I did because there are scholars and academics that do too. I said that the Watchtower and Fundamentalists do not. That was what I wrote.

Academics and scholars aren't people who "make up" things about the books of Daniel and Revelation.

The scholars that you are mocking and that I am talking about are people like Jewish sages such as Maimonides and other great Hebrew teachers of history such as Ravi. I am also making reference to the Church and Apostolic Fathers, such as those that helped create and finalize the Biblical canon. That is who you are talking about whar you said "they don't know jack about what Revelation means." Without them we would not even have the Book of Revelation.

You talk about "love" is what you need to protect you from the "mark of the beast." Your type of love is not helping you do anything but be arrogant and hateful and close-minded and turn people off.

Who would want to be like you? I would rather hear from the great teachers of the Jews, the Church Fathers than from someone like you. You are not a person of love. You are dark and dimwitted.

19

About the Mark of the Beast

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

i can agree on most of what this man preaches about the mark of the beast.. https://madmaxworld.tv/watch?id=64fd01a1112661824fb397c7.

..

KalebOutWest

People, have we not grown past our Watchtower days?

Personally, I believe people should be free to make their choices free of religious dogma. But even if you are going to go down that route, why choose to repeat the same mistakes and go down the road that the JWs take?

They read Revelation and the Bible without any critical type of approach, without any consideration of its ancient form of genre. It isn't a prophecy, it's an apocalypse. Its alternative title is even "The Apocalypse of John."

An apocalypse is a writing containing political intrigue that is filled with commentary on what was happening during the author's lifetime written in the name of a prophet as if they were oracles foretelling the future. The Book of Daniel is a similar work (it was written during the time of the Hasmonean dynasty explaining the events of the Maccabean revolt that lead up to the first celebration of Chanukah). Just as "Daniel" is not the author of the book bearing his name, neither is "John" the author of the Christian apocalypse. So why try to go back and "guess" what these things are going to be in the future like the Watchtower (of some Fundamentalist Christians) preach. There are countless commentaries explaining what the authors were talking about in the past that academics agree upon (in other words, scholars know more or less what these writers were saying as they were talking about the past, not looking into the future). That's why there are commentaries on the subject.

Because some people (still) think that the book of Revelation is an actual prophecy, some of these have actually thought that the "Mark of the Beast" have been the following:

RFID tags (introduced in WWII)
Barcodes on products
Microchips (fear they would be forced to tag people to ID them or used as payment)
Cryptocurrency
REAL ID Act
"Obamacare"

For more information see--The Desperate Search for the Mark of the Beast

11

4 Verses Jehovah's Witnesses fulfill today, can you think of more?

by raymond frantz in

.

KalebOutWest

And by the way, here's one that I think applies to the JWs:

Beware that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name and say, "I AM!" and "The time is near!" Do not go after them.--Luke 21:8, NRSV, using the footnote reading.

According to scholars, the reading: "Many will come in my name and say, 'I am he!" can also read, "I AM!" This, according to academics means that false prophets may come employing the Divine Name and claim that only they know the time of the end. Here Jesus warns his followers: "Do not go after them."

11

4 Verses Jehovah's Witnesses fulfill today, can you think of more?

by raymond frantz in

.

KalebOutWest

Duran...

Since, as you claim, you've never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses. How do you know the things you do?

Remember in our earlier discussion on the thread on the Trinity, when I talked about people who either grew up in or were actual members of the religion, you said you were neither. Where do you get all your knowledge?

Why do you quote from the NWT?

I ask out of curiosity at this point. In our discussion you were adamant to point out you were never one (or that my comments about being associated with Watchtower religion and being brought up in it did not apply to you). So where are you getting all this?