Posts by KalebOutWest

87

What does the Catholic church think of JW?

by Halcon in

on a trip to rome a few years ago i asked my friend (who is roman and jw) what the catholic faith thinks of jw.

he simply stated that jw is tolerated by the church but that really not much thought is given to them.

is there an official stance on jw by the catholics?

KalebOutWest

Kidding on the brain issues.

No. I was a boy. I had never had any conversation with a real JW before up to that point in my life.

I think I was 7. Maybe...

There was my aunt, but no, we hadn't talked about religion.

87

What does the Catholic church think of JW?

by Halcon in

on a trip to rome a few years ago i asked my friend (who is roman and jw) what the catholic faith thinks of jw.

he simply stated that jw is tolerated by the church but that really not much thought is given to them.

is there an official stance on jw by the catholics?

KalebOutWest

Slimboyfat:

Did the priest know your JW connection or did he just tell the story in general?

Duh, what?

I said, if you recall, that I am remembering this story from my boyhood days in elementary school, when I went to Catholic school during the day and Hebrew school in the evening.

I don't know about you, but I don't believe that means I would have had any JW connection at the time.

Do Jehovah's Witnesses normally send their kids to Catholic prep schools for boys and Hebrew school in the afternoon so they can become Bar Mitzvah? If I am not mistaken, JWs tend to believe other religions are of the Devil, right?

(Me thinks me knows why you folks were in a cult now. Brain issues.)

87

What does the Catholic church think of JW?

by Halcon in

on a trip to rome a few years ago i asked my friend (who is roman and jw) what the catholic faith thinks of jw.

he simply stated that jw is tolerated by the church but that really not much thought is given to them.

is there an official stance on jw by the catholics?

KalebOutWest

I think Fr. Eugene told a lot of stories to us boys back then. But I do think there was some truth in his tale.

His witty comeback actually comes from a very old joke about Americans and Canadians. Since Witnesses are generally politically neutral I gather the publishers just walked into that one. You should never ask another person what their group thinks of your group if they're old enough to recall the joke.

Americans are generally confused about Canada--it's part of the UK, a territory of the British, but wants to speak French, so that boggles a lot of American minds. (A South Park song, for example, was once nominated for "Best Song" at the Oscars entitled Blame Canada with the line: "They're not even a real country anyway!") So the Canadian people's pride has always been a subject of humor to some in the US (if not unfortunate disdain from others).

The famous joke was that a Canadian at a diner asked an American: "What do you Americans really think of us Canadians, eh?"

The reply was: "We don't."

Being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, the fella stepped into that one, and Fr. Eugene couldn't resist.

87

What does the Catholic church think of JW?

by Halcon in

on a trip to rome a few years ago i asked my friend (who is roman and jw) what the catholic faith thinks of jw.

he simply stated that jw is tolerated by the church but that really not much thought is given to them.

is there an official stance on jw by the catholics?

KalebOutWest

I cannot speak for the Catholic Church as a whole, but having been enrolled in a Roman Catholic elementary school during the day when I was a boy as there were no Jewish schools where I lived (I had Hebrew school in the evening), my catechist, Fr. Eugene Caserly of Little Flower Catholic Church did tell a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses who had this question the following.

This is from a long time ago (I'm old) when the Society still had those awful green-colored Bibles and magazines were filled with mostly hand-drawn, two-colored illustrations. (I was a kid back then.)

Fr. Eugene said the two "Jehovahs" knocked on his door not realizing it was a rectory. They were quite surprised when a collared priest came to the door and so they just stumbled through their presentation.

They tried to engage him in a conversation and offer him "some books or pamphlet" but the shock of meeting a priest and being ill-prepared just never seemed to wear off.

So upon coming to the end of what seemed like a fiasco, one of them actually asked this question: "Do you mind telling me, sir, what do Catholics really think of us Jehovah's Witnesses?"

Fr. Eugene grinned at the two men as he grabbed hold of his front door, and replied: "We don't."

And with that, he slammed it on them.

I don't think there's anything official either, so I wouldn't be surprised if Fr. Eugene's view was pretty spot on not just for Catholics but most folks.

People don't even know JWs are around.

84

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

The rabbis believe these stories teach mitzvah.

I was speaking about religious laws. That's why I said the above.

But as I said, if you claim you know and have better understanding over my own thoughts and words than me, why do you need to ask me a question in the first place like you did?

You just wanted to argue.

You have no desire to listen or be "peaceful," huh, Pete?

84

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

Thankyou. I agree there might have been a more political/sectarian motive behind many Bible stories than for 'The Little Old Lady in a Shoe', at least as they were utilized by the compilers

I didn't say that, Pete.

This is what I really hate about a few exJWs I've met, either here or elsewhere.

It's like this guy I met in a supermarket who kept jabbering on about how he hated Jane Fonda and how he wanted to kill her, no matter what I said (so I got away fast). The guy heard in my words his mudererous thoughts being repeated no matter what I said.

Some people have this other tune about the Bible playing in their head.

No matter what I say, they hear their words instead.

(The only time I made an even slightly similar statement was in the introduction to a complerely different post that had nothing to do with our conversation.)

I am finished. You don't need me. You have you. Apparently, YOU is all you need.

Fuck me...real hard!

84

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete:

Good question.The narratives in a law book are not bedtime stories.

For instance, one might come across a leash law in a law book. Then the book reads:

One the morning of November 7, 1972, one Irene Hart took her dog, Pepper. A female poodle, outside to do it's morning business. The mailman came earlier on his route that day, and Pepper, who usually was inside during the mail's usual delivery time, became aroused and ran towards the mail courier. Startled, the mailman fell back into the neighborhood street, causing one Mr. Robert J. Peterson, 37, to steer his car into a street sign, hitting his head on his steering wheel....

Stories in law books aren't there with all their gruesome details to entertain the readers. They are there to demonstrate the reason for the laws or their application.

It is supposed to be similar with the Torah and the other books of Jewish Scripture, which were read as supplements during the year to the parasha of each Torah reading in the liturgy.

I personally don't necessarily agree with this view all the time or with what is written in the texts.

I don't think my Jewish people were any more special than any other culture or "chosen" or have a "true religion."

I don't believe the Bible is inspired. I think some of our stories are violent and horrific. Some are okay.

There is wisdom in every culture, and horrific and violent stories in some other myths from other ancient people too.

I don't recommend violence from anywhere, regardless of where it comes from.

Jews are NOT special. Just because I am Jewish doesn't mean anything. I just know this stuff because I went through the torture of years of Hebrew school and then taught it. I had no control of being born to Jews.

I am an exJW, you guys talk about the Bible, so I talk about what I know.

If I knew about Mickey Mouse, and that was the subject. I would ttalk. But we're not talking Disney, and that's not what I spent a decade studying under a rabbi who never used my name but only called me: "Hey, Sephardic Boy."

It just so happens that the Watchtower is based on the Bible and I was born to Sephardic Jews--and was there for a short time in a Kingdom Hall. Jews get formal education in their culture, usually for those 10 years, so I share what I know.

It does not mean I approve of these stories, believe in the supernatural, believe in the God of the Bible, pray, etc. I don't.

But, yes. The rabbis believe these stories teach mitzvah.

The Jewish Study Bible, published by the Jewish Publication Society, explains this in the footnotes.

Old woman in a shoe? Oy vey. I wish.

84

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

Rattigan350:

It is ridiculous that people would think that he would burn her.

Yes...and no.

As I stated in my post, Judaism itself has no consensus on what exactly happened to Seila, Jeptha's daughter.

But that may be the precise point.

Hebrew writing is more complicated and complex than previously thought or imagined by the scholars of the 1800s who developed some of the first critical practices and methods. We have since learned that if something is left open for questioning, it is generally not without purpose.

The Book of Job does this in a very blatant manner. Job spends the entire book asking why is he having to suffer, begging to hear the answer from God. When God does reply, the answer is essentially: "You tell me, if you're so smart!" In other words, why claim that something is broken if you didn't make it in the first place--it might be working exactly as designed. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it needs fixing.

The same type of story-telling might be employed here as well. It's not about the daughter. It's about Jeptha and his vow, and what we can learn from it--namely doing stupid things from thinking we are "all that and a bag of chips," as it is often said.

We often think we know it all and we are big stuff, and because of pride we get stupid--and it costs lives...even our own.

The story is not historical, so arguing over the details is falling into the very trap that the story warns about, namely thinking you can know it all.

The Watchtower tries to make it sound a certain way since they believe in a supernatural deity, a personal God that is righteous and would never allow or accept human sacrifice. They also believe that the Bible is a historical document. If it isn't, then their religion falls apart. So they argue for ways to make it sound reasonable.

I promise you that the Jewish world knows the story is composed of folklore, legend and myth. Even if some of the elements may have kernels of history, the story is a legend. Nobody could die falling apart piece by piece by piece and be buried in various towns and cities until there was nothing left of them. The reason for this death is to imply that Jeptha cut up Seila in this manner and God had repaid him in the same way. This is mythological.

It doesn't matter what happened to the daughter. Stories in the Biblical narrative are about YOU. What does this prevent you from acting like? How does it make you better?

Are you supposed to learn from what happened to Seila? Or is it really the example of Jeptha's rash vow wherein the lesson is to be found?

If you concentrate on the daughter, you have missed everything.

84

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

In Judaism, the account of Jephthah is considered a combination of legend and mythology. Judges is part of the Deuteronomistic History, compiled centuries after the supposed events (likely during the 7th-6th centuries BCE). The stories may reflect historical kernels but are highly shaped by theological and political agendas of the day.

One of the main Jewish theological theories is that the tale of Jepthah's daughter, known as Seila in Jewish tradition, is a feminine counterpart or moral reflection to the Abrahamic narrative of the Binding of Isaac. This is preserved in the composition known as Biblical Antiquities, composed by the anonymous author often referred to as Pseudo-Philo, writing somewhere between 25–135 CE or just after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. The author reimagines and expands upon narratives from the Hebrew Scriptures from Genesis through 1 Samuel, and discusses the story of Seila in chapter 39-40.

Whereas Genesis displays Abraham's inaction to God's command to offer Issac as a sacrifice in the shadow of a debate for the lives of the people of Sodom, most of whom Abraham had never met, the narrative of Seila in BA seems to try to redeem God's inaction in the Book of Judges when Jephthah offers up his daughter.

The point is that Seila is considered offered as a literal sacrifice in much of Jewish thought, so much so that the Masoretic Text seems to describe Jephthah's death in Judges in a providential manner, one that the New World Translation rendering committee (or at least the current revision group) seems to be uncomfortable with.

While there is still some considerable debate in Judaism as to exactly what the narrative in Judges is exactly describing--whether this is a literal sacrifice or not (it is still considered a legend, no matter what)--what happened to Jepthah for his rash vow is quite clear. According to the Hebrew Bible (and the way it is understood by Jewish readers and scholars), Jepthath became quite ill, died, and lost many of his limbs as a result of this divine punishment. This led to his various limbs being buried in various locations, which is why the text at Judges 12:7 reads that Jephthah was

buried in the cities of Gilead.--Italics added.

The 1984 edition of the NWT does indeed note this in the footnotes as the reading of the Masoretic Text, but the newly updated "silver sword" has no references whatsoever, showing no alternative readings here. This is particularly odd since this is the preferred Jewish reading and the footnote reading of the NRSVue. (The text can at least be read "he is buried in [one of] the towns of Gilead," but the word for "town" or "city" is indeed plural, and the tradition behind his manner of death is one of the interesting Jewish tropes behind the folklore.) Removing all notices to the plural here is curious.

It has also been the subject of art for centuries.

Behold--"The Sacrifice of Jephthah's Daughter" by Thomas Blanchet, from the Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon, dates from the 17th century. Depicted is an actual sacrifice similar to that of the Binding of Isaac.

____

Legends and Myths

Are legends and myths true in Jewish thought? True, yes. Fact, no. For instance, the Torah narrative that God created the world in 6 days is considered a "myth." It is also considered true, in Judaism, that God created the world. But myths use metaphor, not history, to teach. So it is not fact, that is in the Jewish theological or historical sense, that God created the universe in 6 literal days. There are differences between myths, legends, folklore, and history too. The Bible has very little history. In fact, only around the events of the Babylonian Exile does it touch upon history, but it rarely records it. The Hebrew Bible is generally concerned with religion and mostly liturgy--which is probably the most important of all.

The Christian Bible is concerned mostly with catechesis. It does contain some history, but mainly in the epistles and then coincidental, mostly when the author does not intend to do so. In the New Testament there is no "true" or "fact" in the Hebrew Bible sense but a concern for what Christian writers believe is "truth" or salvific enlightenment.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

KalebOutWest

A footnote for anyone who may want to know what I actually was asked to do for the translation of the Abbey Psalter--Hebrew poetry does not rhyme, but is instead written with a regular rhythm.each prayer and psalm has a different one, and the origal Grail Psalter, which this is a revision of, tries to capture this in order to make Gregorian chant easier. They wanted to ask a Hebrew liturgy user what this was like for them.

There was no way to preserve what was in the Hebrew, but the English in the Grail (and the revision) does represent what the Hebrew does at times. The translators tried to makes sure they did this.