Posts by evilApostate

34

So the governing body is NOT inspired...are they still "spirit directed"?

by NikL in

okay there has been lots of buzz about the feb 2017 wt where they say the governing body is not inspired nor infallible.

yet, they are still using the baptism questions.

the second one being... "do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of jehovah’s witnesses in association with god’s spirit-directedorganization?".

evilApostate

Watchtower January 2017, page 28, par. 19 - "As we follow their direction, (the G.B.) therefore, we follow our Leader, Jesus."

*February, 2017

34

So the governing body is NOT inspired...are they still "spirit directed"?

by NikL in

okay there has been lots of buzz about the feb 2017 wt where they say the governing body is not inspired nor infallible.

yet, they are still using the baptism questions.

the second one being... "do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of jehovah’s witnesses in association with god’s spirit-directedorganization?".

evilApostate

IMHO it is even worse for them to say that they are spirit directed.

To direct: control the operations of; manage or govern.

To inspire: fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.

When someone inspires you, you can still choose not to act on the inspiration. However, if they claim that their organization is directed by holy spirit then this leaves no room for error. It would mean that everything Watchtower does/says is controlled/governed by holy spirit. Hence, any error by Watchtower would equate to an error by the holy spirit.

30

Is Satan really the bad guy in story of creation?

by evilApostate in

i wanted to take an objective look at satan in the story of creation.

this is not meant to offend those of you who are still christians.

i'm agnostic btw.

evilApostate

I wanted to take an objective look at Satan in the story of creation. This is not meant to offend those of you who are still christians. I'm agnostic btw. If this is too long then just read the summary below.

In the story of creation it is stated that, "Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad." [Gen 2:9]

I interpret the above to mean that there were two trees:

1) The tree of life in the middle of the garden

2) The tree of the knowledge of good and bad

Later on, Jehovah spoke to Adam saying, "Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”" [Gen 2:16-17]

I interpret the above to mean that eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad causes death. However, they can eat from all other trees, which I presume includes the tree of life.

Now, after Eve was created she was asked by the serpent if God told them not to eat from every tree in the garden. She replied by telling the serpent that they may not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden (i.e. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad). Christians interpret the serpant and Satan to be one and the same.

Here comes the interesting part. The serpent told Eve, “You certainly will not die. For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.” [Gen 3:5]

I interpret the above to mean:

1) The tree of the knowledge of good and bad does not cause death

2) The tree of the knowledge of good and bad grants some form of enlightenment; presumably knowing the difference (and being able to choose) between good and bad.

As we know, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. The scripture reads, "Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves."

I interpret the above to mean:

1) The serpent told the truth. Adam and Eve's eyes were opened as promised.

2) In order for Eve to make an alternative choice other than what God had commanded, she needed a competing idea to be introduced to her. The serpent revealed to her the option of eating from the tree; before, the option was never even considered. Also, the scripture uses the word, 'consequently', which suggests that Eve could not choose to eat from the tree without the serpent's suggession (i.e. She lacked freewill).

The story continues with Jehovah finding out that they ate from the tree. He eventually says,"

Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

To the woman he said: “I will greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in pain you will give birth to children, and your longing will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.” And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”"

Above we see that the following was betowed upon mankind:

1) Birthpains

2) Death

3) Men dominating Women.

4) Thistles and thorns

The serpent was also cursed to crawl on its belly.

Nowhere, does it state that eating from the tree of knowledge caused pain and death. Instead it states that God caused pain and death to mankind becaused they obtained enlightenment (presumably freewill as pointed out earlier) from the tree.

The scripture then states, "Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever, —” With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."

Now, above we see that Jehovah was displeased that man became like him. He banished Adam and Eve from the garden so that they may not also eat from the tree of life and obtain everlasting life. It would seem that Jehovah was the bad guy while the serpent tried to help humans to progress.

Below, I summarise my analysis of the story.

Summary:

1) There were two trees; the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

2) Prior to eating from the tree of knowledge man lacked free will.

3) Eating from the tree of knowledge did not cause death. God did.

4) The serpent helped man to obtain enlightenment and become like God.

5) God banished man from the garden and gaurded the tree of life with cherubs to prevent man from breaking the curse of death.

Please discuss.

Btw, did anyone know that Satan is not really a name but a title? It simply means,"the opposer".

25

Something funny about Armageddon

by evilApostate in

years ago, when i was still a publisher, i had a very interesting conversation with a lady in the field service.

we were talking about punishment for sin and so on.

she believed in hellfire.

evilApostate

They get round that by saying "Jehoover knows the hearts of those who would accept and may save them at the Big A"
Of course, thousands die and thousands are born each day...chances are...out of 7 billion people...are you likely to hear from a JW who number 8 million?
I was 19 before I ever met one...

Then what's the point in preaching at all if Jehovah already knows the heart? If Jehovah already knew the angel who would become Satan, then why create him in the first place? Why place the tree of knowledge in the garden if he already knew Adam and Eve would eat from it? It would seem as if some were doomed to destruction even before they were born. I could go on for pages...

25

Something funny about Armageddon

by evilApostate in

years ago, when i was still a publisher, i had a very interesting conversation with a lady in the field service.

we were talking about punishment for sin and so on.

she believed in hellfire.

evilApostate

But of course they can't speak to everyone...including the tribes etc...thus the scripture I quoted is what they use and they explain it by saying in the time of the end the preaching will increase until it is being preached in all the earth and then at some point, God will call time when it has been preached to his satisfaction because they will never cover the earth before Jesus comes at the Big A.

That's still effed up though. To think that people serve a god who will kill billions just because they never heard about him. After all, a person's choice of religion is mainly influenced by where they were born.

25

Something funny about Armageddon

by evilApostate in

years ago, when i was still a publisher, i had a very interesting conversation with a lady in the field service.

we were talking about punishment for sin and so on.

she believed in hellfire.

evilApostate

@stuckinarut2:

Lol. That's the funny part. Imagine this:

News: "500,000 people just died in an earthquake."

JW #1: "Great news! 500,000 people have just been saved from Armageddon. Thank Jehovah!"

JW #2: "An earthquake? Hurray! Its another sign that the end is near! The bible told us these things would happen in the last days."

Me: "You crazy JWs disgust me."

@ Heaven:

What's more is that it is estimated that over 107 billion people have ever lived. If all these people were to be resurected then the earth would surely be overpopulated.

25

Something funny about Armageddon

by evilApostate in

years ago, when i was still a publisher, i had a very interesting conversation with a lady in the field service.

we were talking about punishment for sin and so on.

she believed in hellfire.

evilApostate

@The Searcher:

Yeah, I see what you mean. When I was still a JW this scipture was always used to prove that death=forgiveness from sin.

@notsurewheretogo:

Interesting. Years ago, I think I remember them saying that their advancement in the worldwide preaching work was proof that the end was near. They would always reference the scripture I mentioned.

Btw can anyone tell me how to quote someone's post in mines?

25

Something funny about Armageddon

by evilApostate in

years ago, when i was still a publisher, i had a very interesting conversation with a lady in the field service.

we were talking about punishment for sin and so on.

she believed in hellfire.

evilApostate

Years ago, when I was still a publisher, I had a very interesting conversation with a lady in the field service. We were talking about punishment for sin and so on. She believed in hellfire. I remember telling her that "the wages of sin is death." Therefore, when one dies, he pays for all his sins and hence can recieve a ressurection.

She then asked me what was the point of living a good christian life, since you were going to be forgiven all your sins at death anyway, regardless of how you lived. I then mentioned Armageddon and told her that those wiped out in Armageddon die eternally.

Now, here comes the funny part. There is a scripture (can't remember which one) which states that "this good news must be preached throughout the entire earth. Only then the end will come." Since, there are millions who have never even heard of JWs and who will never hear about them for centuries to come, then it must mean that Armageddon (if it was going to happen) must be hundreds of years away. For example, amazon tribes and millions living in certain muslim countries etc. have never even heard from JWs.

Therefore, even if the JWs were right about Armageddon (which they aren't), no one has anything to worry about. Everyone currently alive would be forgiven their sins and resurected anyway. This makes all of their current fanaticism pointless (as if it weren't already pointless).

12

1 Step Forward and 3 Steps Back: Trying to Get My Mom to See 'The Light' (Oh the Irony!)

by Sorry in

recently, my mother's been hounding me to do personal study (i think she's slowly realizing i'm becoming disillusioned with the organization and is trying to reign me back in).

i don't know what made me do this, but i decided to test the waters by challenging 'new light'.

she asked me what i learned in personal study, so i brought up organ transplants and the wt flip floppy stance on them (thanks jwfacts!).

evilApostate

The new light doctrine is a small drop in an ocean of stupid doctrines which you can question. For example, what about the overlapping generation doctrine? Pure stupidity!

Anyway, you can point to 2 Timothy 3:7 which states that in the last days men will be "always learning but never coming to a knowledge of truth." Watchtower always dispenses new insight, new light or new knowledge and yet none of their doctrines/predictions ever hold true. It's always nice to use their own scripture against them.

Watchtower has never predicted anything fully or even partially. Don't let them mention 1914 to you because Armageddon didn't come as they said it would and they also guessed many dates before. Not to mention the fact that 1914 is based on 607 BCE which is not when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Another scripture which speaks out againt them is Deuteronomy 18:22. It essentially states that a prophet who makes a false prediction was not sent by god. And yes, Watchtower refered to the anointed higherups as the two witnesses/prophets of Revelation; so the scripture surely applies to them.

16

I want to be a JW but they seem to hate me? Help!

by Alostpuppydog in

just going to give a little background about myself and then bring anyone who is reading this up to speed with where i am today:.

growing up in a family that was not aware of jehovah's witnesses at all, as none of my family members have had a run-in with them other than my parents, my entire life has been a mess ever since we met them.

the witnesses first came to my door when i was 12 and my dad started bringing me to meetings and we even lived with a witness family for a month when we were both homeless due to my parent's divorce.

evilApostate

From your OP it seems that you expected to find a community of Jehovah's Witnesses on here. However, most members are no longer JWs or are what we call 'awakened' JWs (I'm agnostic btw). You should research the religion a bit more as you seem to really think that it is 'the truth'. It's not. Websites like jwfacts.com provide a wealth of information which you won't hear about in the Kingdumb halls.

Anyway, I would suggest that you try to make as much friends as possible and also try to find a better job so that you can eventually have your own place. Don't let the Jokehovians know that you are visiting 'apostate' sites and at least pretend to share their beliefs so that you don't get kicked out from where you currently live.

Don't hope to get miracles from praying to Jehovah or Yahweh or whoever. This will just cause you to feel more depressed when you don't get what you want. I'm not saying that good things can't happen to people. However, you shouldn't hope for a million dollars to fall from the sky into your lap. Set realistic goals for yourself and work hard to achieve them. Start with small goals and as you achieve them set bigger ones.